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Well this thread turned ugly real quick. Lets face it - there are both good reasons for and against it. Either way - it's rather obvious that there's one side pushing their own personal agenda in order to get them in a better position for the upcoming tournaments. That said, I'm personally against giving teams a free pass, regardless of the circumstances. Why? Because it completely undermines the whole division system and at that point one can easily question why there's a need for such system in the first place. Also this would set a precedent where other teams could try doing the same and ask for a free pass to advance to higher divisions. Who will decide if a team belongs to be placed in a higher division? Who exactly has the knowledge and capabilities to accurately determine which team belongs in which division? I can only see it turning into an ugly, highly opinionated and subjective mess. For this to work there needs to be a solid set of ground-rules that clearly define the divisions and the whole promotion/relegation process. There's no room for subjectivity or opinions, otherwise this whole community will be a dumpster fire with constant arguing.

"Oddly enough on a side note, if we're talking about being respectful, would calling the league commissioner a cunt be classed as respectful?" What is that supposed to mean? Maybe I'm too old but my "better" way is to figure the problem out together; discuss about it, maybe if we all don't agree we should take a vote (captains). Just ideas. Once again everybody knows unknown is and will be in the top division. If you have an own opinion or if you're pissed, you sure could take it public without making such a drama. Just remember Kenu, Lurkki and the whole staff does this purely as a hobby and totally free. Together we can make it better everybody has to look at the mirror. Both sides! Going on to personal things (how bad you think a staff member does his job or who does this and that ) or that amount of swearing is just well.. I'm too old for this shit. I agree on your "wishes" and problems but just take it easy and lets try to figure them out together. A reminder. This is only my personal thoughts. If you take this personal it's his problem. We can also take it privately. And I know svamp. This is just the goal he wanted. Happy? I rest my case.

I don't see what's the problem here? What's the point of this public shitstorm? How does SIKA involve in this? You have a good point but I'm sure there is a lot more mature way to discuss about it. The staff clearly said they will do everything that unknown is in The league where they belong. That last shitstorm against furyan is imo way to harsh and that won't help you at all. He's done an excellent job this season and during the summer.

Okey, I will go public with this. This is some messages between Unknown and the NHLgamer-staff about future divisions and some questions about our returning to the ECL-Scene after 1 short break b/c job and other stuffs. We basically asked if we in "Unknown" was a team that in a future tournament with divisions needed to show the community "what we can and not can on the ice" - if we were forced to play in the lower division or not. Some history for you that don't remember us. 3 tournaments as "Unknown", 1 EC gold and 1 EHL gold on xbox360 in NHL 13 and NHL 14. 1 EHL gold on PS3 in NHL 15 + 1 gold as members or Northern Ascendancy in NHL 14@xbox360 (5 of 6 players from unknown in that final against NOS). With that said - 4 tournaments, 4 straight titles back in the days. A solid team I would say. Last year - did not play b/c I had some army-thingys. This tournament - not enough players until it was too late to reg for this tournament. Now - back, and waiting for the next tournament. https://www.easports.com/se/nhl/clubs/ps4/Unknown You remember my question? this was the answer we got, and the following discussion. (I think this is an important thing for the whole community to see and discuss it) ------------------------------------------------------ (NHL GAMER STAFF answers) Hey man, extremely sorry for forgetting to give you a reply on this. The reason why you didn't get an immediate response (while we should've given you at least something), is that we didn't have an absolute answer to your question. Long-ish answer: The thing is, on one hand we want to encourage teams sticking together and building these franchises over a longer period of time. The constant shredding of teams and creating new super teams kinda fights against that ideology, so from that perspective, we want to say "No, you will have to start from the bottom". Then, on the other hand, you make a fair point about a team like Unknown, that has amazing merits and clearly doesn't belong in the 3rd division. From that perspective, we want to say "Hey, let's figure something out". We're still a bit on the fence about the details on how exactly to not be total A-holes towards teams like Unknown making a comeback, while still strongly supporting the ideology of continuity and team building. The details about how we intend to tackle these things will be released this week and we will of course be open for constructive criticism and ideas. Short answer: We'll try to pencil you guys in somehow, cause we know you deserve to be fighting with the big boys. We just need to make it work as a concept. Sorry again for accidentally ignoring you! Kind regards, (NHL Gamer Staff) - edited name. -------------------------------------------------- (Unknown Answers) Whatsup, i couldn't remember if you spoke Swedish or not so ill just take it in English instead. (Some other raging) - censored. " The thing is, on one hand we want to encourage teams sticking together and building these franchises over a longer period of time. The constant shredding of teams and creating new super teams kinda fights against that ideology, so from that perspective, we want to say "No, you will have to start from the bottom". " A bit later you also mention that returning or new teams MAY end up getting placed together with teams that lose most of their games with 15-0 in division 3, In other words, you're planning on punishing teams, not because they do anything wrong, but because they dont subscribe to your and the rest of the NHLgamers admins ideas on how teams are "supposed" to be . The whole thing you guys have going about pushing things that i can only assume that you want because it is more "professional" (like the whole only allowing real names debacle) is quite worrying since it seems like there is no actual intention of actually making the site or the community better, its just implemented to fulfill someones dream about how the scene "should" look. Why should players be forced to play with the same people tournament after tournament with no option of playing with a new team? The main problem is that the idea is straight up flawed though. What happens when a team split like Sika and En Hund? With what you are currently talking about the division 1 spot will be given to the team who keeps the name, which may as well just be the 2 worst players on the team and the 6 other guys who are more than good enough to play in division 1 get stuck in the 3rd one because the name of the club isn't the same as it was 1 week ago. What happens when 2 teams across divisions merge? What happens when the inevitable of people trying to take over teams by kicking long term members because they can't create a new team? As it is you are forcing people to stick to their team and not create or merge new teams. At the very least this will make it so much harder for smaller teams and newer players to actually compete with the best because the teams will be shut and will only rotate a few players at the time. At worst teams and players will stop playing all together because they are not allowed to play with the players they want to play with since i don't think there will be a single club who currently are division 1 material willing to start of in division 3. I do appreciate what you've done for the community with NHLgamer, i really do, but i think this is incredible stupid. This has the chance of killing of quite a few teams if handled poorly. And for what? Because someone thought it would look neater on paper if we had franchises? Because someone thinks there is a correct and a incorrect way of how teams are formed and created? If you want to have some idealistic dream on how the scene is supposed to look, start with making it easier for new talented players to get into better teams, not completely isolate the top which is what it looks like you're trying to do currently. -------------------------------------------------------------------- (NHL Gamer Staff Answers) Hey man and thanks for your constructive and well written message. I am currently at work and don't have the time to write a proper answer, but I'll just try to write a couple quick notes below. I have also added the rest of our staff to take a look at your feedback. The main thing I was trying to explain to Svamp was the two extremes we're dealing with and that we're trying to offer a solution that takes into account these things. I didn't go deep into detail because a) I don't personally have all the details, b) I didn't have the time and c) the details are to be covered by the news story (which we will of course also take feedback on) . This is why I chose the personal message approach, as a quickly-ish written message doesn't always do well when analysed in closer detail and I was hoping to get the feedback and questions from Svamp - or in this case you - which is great. I did not write it publically, because I wasn't writing absolute facts and I didn't want my ponderings up for public review at this stage, as I know the work @gzell60 and @The_Alpha_Furyan have put into this project will be able to discuss the matter in much greater detail. All the points you bring up are indeed valid and things we have to take into account. Again, thanks for your post, and we're happy to discuss this matter further, but I gotta get back to work. PS: I do speak Swedish, but for the purpose of being able to efficiently discuss these topics without a great amount of translation work, I appreciate the English messages. + I will let (Other staff member) respond if he wants to draft a longer response to what you wrote here, but I would like to take the chance to ask if you read the rest of Kenus message to iSvamp where you got the quoted part from? It goes like this: "Then, on the other hand, you make a fair point about a team like Unknown, that has amazing merits and clearly doesn't belong in the 3rd division. From that perspective, we want to say "Hey, let's figure something out". We're still a bit on the fence about the details on how exactly to not be total A-holes towards teams like Unknown making a comeback, while still strongly supporting the ideology of continuity and team building. The details about how we intend to tackle these things will be released this week and we will of course be open for constructive criticism and ideas. Short answer: We'll try to pencil you guys in somehow, cause we know you deserve to be fighting with the big boys. We just need to make it work as a concept." We are listening to all ideas and input, before and after we release the actual official information post --------------------------------------------------- (Unknown answers) I did (Censored name), you clearly didn't read mine though. Ill give you a pass however, i've heard that you have had trouble with your reading comprehension before. My problem isn't whether a specific team that i'm not even on will get fucked over by this, it's, like its pretty clearly says in my message, that this accomplishes nothing while potentially killing teams off. Yeah, my message is mostly about the utterly insane fucking idea that you want to "encourage" teams to stick together. Sure, you may end up encouraging teams that stick together by sending a congratulation message every time they enter consecutive tournaments or some other completely meaningless thing and this turns out to be a non-problem. The way (other Staff member) is phrasing it however makes it sounds like you are going to make it much harder for teams that are reforming to ever actually get a chance at getting in to division 1, which is a huge problem for no other reason that again, you think there is only one correct way of forming teams for god knows what reason. The other part of that whole thing that i didn't even get into is the division systems since it boggles my mind that you are still trying to implement it even after Billy has explained time and time again why it is a straight up flawed system for a gaming league. I didn't mention it because really, if you haven't realized it by now, you never will. At least your reasoning for implementing all of these things (real names, 3 divisions, "encouraging" longevity among teams) are because you want to do whats best for the community and not at all to fulfill some weird fantasy about this being a real esport with franchises and shit that nobody but you believe in. But hey, maybe that's what i should expect from the guy that is currently writing those lovely news stories and the guy that think that a player dropping 3 minutes in to the game means that the rest of the game should be played with a bot in a 6v6 league. ________________________________________________ So this is the "wish líst thread" - and this should be important for many of you out there. Let's discuss it! What is your opinion and thoughts about it? Bring it on. / Svamp, Unknown

So we're not allowed to publicly question decisions? I'm curious as to what you think respect actually means. It doesn't mean blind obligation, it doesn't mean copious amounts of compliments need to be spewed out. It simple means that someone should be viewed as a person, not as an infallible figure head. Just because someone holds a 'position' higher than one's self, that doesn't mean they're inherently better equipped to deal with situations than someone further down the totem pole if it were. As such, any questioning should be welcomed. Of course at that point we're talking constructive questioning. The fact you are calling for a fucking better way to voice displeasure than a well thought out post makes me question what the fuck you're on about. What would be a better way? Internal questioning? Well in that case we'd end up at the same position, a public post detailing the same information, just now worded differently. The goal would remain the same, to spread this information to as many people as possible and to gauge a reaction. " What is your opinion and thoughts about it? " - Svamp " Don't forget to vote on the poll! " - Kenu " We are suggesting 3 game-days per week, unless the community is strongly against it. " - Kenu " This is up for discussion, it is only our suggestion. " - Kenu " The thing is though, that our opinions are not the absolute truth, so we want to hear what the community wants and how they respond to these ideas. " - Kenu Note: This isn't meant as a slight against Kenu in anyway so don't even try and take it that way, it's just an example that while Svamp may be a little pissed, at the end of the day what is exactly 'wrong' about how he handled it? I respect Kenu, he's trying to accomplish something (that I assume in his head is grand) and as such I would assume everyone here could agree that that warrants respect. Blind praise however? Hell no. If anyone here thinks that respect means you can't even question someone critically then you need to read a fucking dictionary. Personally I don't like the way Kenu goes about things but then again, that doesn't fucking matter, because at the end of the day on a person to person basis I respect him. We may have vastly differing opinions on certain things but I've always tried to be cordial, explain my thoughts as clearly as possible, as well as be as respectful as possible, that doesn't mean however I shouldn't be able to write pieces that effectively completely negative to his decisions. We're here to build a site yes? So stop blowing smoke up everyone's ass and actually work through issues instead of just playing hot potato. A competent CEO surround by yes men is likely to do worse than an incompetent CEO surrounded by people that can actually critically think about shit. Again, this is an example so don't try to make this out as though I'm describing the NHL gamer staff through some cryptic code. Oddly enough on a side note, if we're talking about being respectful, would calling the league commissioner a cunt be classed as respectful? Furthermore, if people want a reminder, this whole "division" system has been talked about for almost a year now and still it's 'a work in progress':

I can see the point NHL Gamer admins are chasing about teams sticking together but it won't work. It sounds ridiculous that for example team like Unknown which is full of top players should start from division 3. If there is two tournaments in a year it means they should play no less than a year in lower divisions even though they belong to the highest division. Nobody wins if top players play in lower divisions because then there will be less top teams in division 1 and the top players will dominate against weaker teams and bring away motivation from them. It would be great if teams would stick together but is it realistic? There is a lot of drama in NHL community and it's pretty pity to force teams to stick together. But how we will get new teams full of top players straight to the division 1? I suggest that there should be a couple of wild card spots on division 1 and admins would pick the best non-division 1 teams to the highest division. If some division 1 team wouldn't participate in next season there would be one wild card spot more and so on. Of course it would cause a lot of moaning but I can't find any better option. After all the main thing is that the division 1 should be as high-class as possible.

I also want one thing to be added on the wishlist. The community needs OODAP back! We miss that bastard

Would be great if we have here topic or site where are videos and highlights. Nowadays almost every team streams and get those videos on tape so why we dont have that kinda topic here. Now if you want to see games you have find those on twitch. So would be easier that there would be topic where everyone can post those clips. First there would be regular season highlights and then playoffs. Guess many guys wanna see highlights of semi-final and final over and over again. Maybe you guys need more staff to make this happen i dont know but this would be my wish. As well would be nice if there is awards like best saves etc.

I have no idea why Svamp posted my PM's to Kenu and Furyan, you have to ask him about that, but since he did i may as well just answer this. You are right, SIKA shouldnt be involved in this and they aren't either. I used SIKA as an example of a team that split up and created a new team and what could hypothetically happen with their whole "encouraging teams to stick together" if shits hits the fan. I have no idea how you think that this means that i involved SIKA in any way. And i clearly said that i wasn't on Unknown and are arguing of the point of someone that will most likely not be affected by it. Im calling their whole idea stupid, not arguing for Unknowns sake. But you are also just wrong, they didn't clearly state that Unknown should be put in the highest division, the only thing that has been said about it is that they are on the fence about the details. They are on the fence on whether to place the team with if not the most, top 3 most ecl titles, in division 3 or not. This is for a team with objective merits, what is going to happen when a team like Laser that is undoubtedly insane but doesn't have anything to show for it get put in the same situation? The Furyan shitstorm, just what? He was being condescending (which he tends to be every time he talks to people, he should probably work on that) by copy and pasting something that was very obviously addressed, so i made a offhand comment about him not being able to read the rules and getting banned. Im sure he has heard and called people much worse than that and im sure he is a big boy and will be fine. I also have no desire or intention of getting involved in some argument over this shit, especially not before they actually outline what they plan to do with the division system and if they really are going to push the brain numbingly dumb idea that they should encourage teams to stay together by punishing teams that don't. I sent 2 messages i spent 15 minutes each at tops to tell them that the entire concept is stupid because i got annoyed at the message they sent Svamp, not because i wanted to start a shit flinging contest in a thread.

Also maybe the awards should also be added. A fun little add on. Brings a bit more motivation for young guns. And I totally agree with silenttio with his good post. The match comments was so fun to read.

Seen as I was complaining about stuff in the chatbox, I may as well say one thing here. If there's one thing that makes zero sense to me is the ruling pertaining to what should happen should a player drop from a game. So, we're a 6v6 league, why should we even entertain the prospect of playing an entire period with an ai on the ice? If a player drops, the game should be dead (mostly). I will digress that if the game ends if someone drops, then there will always be someone scummy enough to try and abuse it, so it would make sense then to say that the next stoppage would end the game. Still though, isn't it better to try and work through these problems instead of just straight up copping out and defeating the purpose of a 6s league? As it stands the onus to decide whether or not the period should continue is left to the opposing team for some reason. Why is that so? I can't possibly think of a single reason why this more reasonable than letting the team that dropped a player decide, especially since they're (typically) in direct contact with the dude that dropped. I'm sure there are other rules that strike me as odd, but this just straight up perplexes me and as such I would welcome some clarification on the thought process behind it.