Player Ability Bans - ECL '25 Season Discussion

[Allupekkaz]

11 minuuttia sitten, antoniomannen004 kirjoitti:

Maybe? i dont know i dont believe so

But this arrogant way of looking at things is not the way to go.

Come with arguments for why you like abilities without putting other people down and calling them bots

abilitys is part of the game isn’t it?

so why we just dosent go back to Nhl21 if we want to play without abilitys?

First time we have good game by gameplay and you guys wanna go for that ”hanaa and force” shit again😁 

Edited Thursday at 07:12 PM by Allupekkaz

[Wpaanane]

If whole vneks or whatever its called wants everything banned they can continue playing their own swedish league like now

[antoniomannen004]

2 minuter sedan, Allupekkaz säger:

abilitys is part of the game isn’t it?

so why we just dosent go back to Nhl21 if we want to play without abilitys?

First time we have good game by gameplay and you guys wanna go for that ”hanaa and force” shit again😁 

I dont know if i have to repeat myself

I have played with both abilities and no abilities 

I get that abilities are part of the game.

I enjoy the gameplay without abilities more i have found it more fun to play. Whatever u say wont change my mind

It is fine to discuss things why u like it this way but dont come at me or anyone else saying we enjoy it more without and call us bots or saying skill issue dont be an arrogant guy and just state your argument for why u want abilities in the game

4 minuter sedan, Wpaanane säger:

If whole vneks or whatever its called wants everything banned they can continue playing their own swedish league like now

Not gonna take anything you write seriously since u probably gonna retire again in like 3 months for what is it? 

The 4th time? I have lost count

[pappeen-]

5 minuter sedan, Wpaanane säger:

If whole vneks or whatever its called wants everything banned they can continue playing their own swedish league like now

Trust me, we will xd

and if Wade thinks otherwise it’s ofc ok! But we all know what will happen eventually, you will post about retiring for the 6th(maybe even more) time🤝

Edited Thursday at 07:18 PM by pappeen-

[txmbo999]

3 minuuttia sitten, antoniomannen004 kirjoitti:

Maybe? i dont know i dont believe so

But this arrogant way of looking at things is not the way to go.

Come with arguments for why you like abilities without putting other people down and calling them bots

 

12 minuuttia sitten, antoniomannen004 kirjoitti:

Very arrogant way to look at things!

Just because someone doesnt share your opinion in something doesnt mean it is trolling

I want all abilities ban! I enjoy the gameplay more that way!

But calling people stupid for enjoying something that you yourself dont enjoy is a very arrogant way at looking at things in both life and in this case

 

I accept the players who think abilities is fine! That is your opinion, but dont call me or anyone else who enjoys something else stupid, cause that has been the case in this discussion! 

That way people dont dare stand up for what they believe in cause if they write what they actually think they just get the best players in the scene hounding them calling them "shit" "skill issue" stuff like that

 

That was maybe unnecessary comment but talking about playing without abilities, I wont never get how u are thinking playing without abilities are better. First of all I think u havent played single game against any top elite team. Then what fun u see about going back forcing meta and most of goals will be forces through skates and tips.

I dont also understand why u feel that golden stick em up is too op, I think its rewarding play lose puck when u cant protect puck (even with stick em up u still sometimes  dont get puck when u should). Without stick em up gameplay would go direction where players will just hustle through enemies and that wouldnt make any sense. If u have troubles against pokes and I havent see any other complaining about that, solution isnt that it will be banned and remove rest of the skillgap of the game. 

[pappeen-]

7 minuter sedan, Allupekkaz säger:

abilitys is part of the game isn’t it?

so why we just dosent go back to Nhl21 if we want to play without abilitys?

First time we have good game by gameplay and you guys wanna go for that ”hanaa and force” shit again😁 

”Hanaa and force” isn’t our style Mr Buntsel, that’s your gamestyle, and you are pretty good at it! We play our own game🫡

[antoniomannen004]

Just nu, txmbo999 säger:

 

That was maybe unnecessary comment but talking about playing without abilities, I wont never get how u are thinking playing without abilities are better. First of all I think u havent played single game against any top elite team. Then what fun u see about going back forcing meta and most of goals will be forces through skates and tips.

I dont also understand why u feel that golden stick em up is too op, I think its rewarding play lose puck when u cant protect puck (even with stick em up u still sometimes  dont get puck when u should). Without stick em up gameplay would go direction where players will just hustle through enemies and that wouldnt make any sense. If u have troubles against pokes and I havent see any other complaining about that, solution isnt that it will be banned and remove rest of the skillgap of the game. 

That is fine tomboo! 

It is your opinion, i have a different opinion it is fine

I am just writing now cause if we are gonna have a discussion about these things people need to be able to write what they think without being scared of being hounded with comments that you are a bot or have skill issue by the best players in the scene! 

That is no way to run a democracy!

And u guys want a vote right to settle this? Then it needs to be a fair vote where people are not scared to vote against the "elite" guys cause they are scared of getting shit on with comments! 

That is my whole point

If u want my whole reason why i enjoy it more write to me in DM cause i dont wanna fill this thread up with anymore of my opinions since it already has been stated, i want to let other guys write what they think

[iSvamp]

32 minuter sedan, antoniomannen004 säger:

Very arrogant way to look at things!

Just because someone doesnt share your opinion in something doesnt mean it is trolling

I want all abilities ban! I enjoy the gameplay more that way!

But calling people stupid for enjoying something that you yourself dont enjoy is a very arrogant way at looking at things in both life and in this case

 

I accept the players who think abilities is fine! That is your opinion, but dont call me or anyone else who enjoys something else stupid, cause that has been the case in this discussion! 

That way people dont dare stand up for what they believe in cause if they write what they actually think they just get the best players in the scene hounding them calling them "shit" "skill issue" stuff like that

 

Yes, you are absolutely right. 
I can take an example from my own life. 
I have worked in the Swedish Armed Forces for more years than many in here are old. 
Every damn year we are forced to train with soldiers from Finland. And yes, they have a rather low level of skill and training compared to many other countries in Northern Europe. The exercises are always boring, and their solutions to problems are very different from ours both tactically and strategically.
But now it is the case that NATO has decided that Finland is our forward operating area for the Swedish forces. Then it would be incredibly stupid to piss on your Finnish colleagues, when they do not share our values and our view of how things should be solved strategically. Because it is with these Finnish soldiers that we will die together when the shit hits the fan. I have to accept that the Finnish soldiers also have an opinion, and a right to think. If I don't, I am absolutely convinced that the Finnish soldiers will shoot me before the Russians do. 

What you are doing now in here is fucking sick. You sit and call people bad just because they do not share your opinion. Do you really think that the players in Core and NEO dare to write an opinion in here just because you are a bunch of arrogant little kids? 

Even Finns who have never won anything in here sit and call people bad. Come on, step up. And those who have won, they work with the same method. And it's almost more fucking pathetic.

[WeDuX_]

29 minuuttia sitten, iSvamp kirjoitti:

Yes, you are absolutely right. 
I can take an example from my own life. 
I have worked in the Swedish Armed Forces for more years than many in here are old. 
Every damn year we are forced to train with soldiers from Finland. And yes, they have a rather low level of skill and training compared to many other countries in Northern Europe. The exercises are always boring, and their solutions to problems are very different from ours both tactically and strategically.
But now it is the case that NATO has decided that Finland is our forward operating area for the Swedish forces. Then it would be incredibly stupid to piss on your Finnish colleagues, when they do not share our values and our view of how things should be solved strategically. Because it is with these Finnish soldiers that we will die together when the shit hits the fan. I have to accept that the Finnish soldiers also have an opinion, and a right to think. If I don't, I am absolutely convinced that the Finnish soldiers will shoot me before the Russians do. 

What you are doing now in here is fucking sick. You sit and call people bad just because they do not share your opinion. Do you really think that the players in Core and NEO dare to write an opinion in here just because you are a bunch of arrogant little kids? 

Even Finns who have never won anything in here sit and call people bad. Come on, step up. And those who have won, they work with the same method. And it's almost more fucking pathetic.

We are talking about NHL traits…..

[iSvamp]

5 minuter sedan, Easychasniper2 säger:

Mistä sä puhut

I was just trying to be arrogant and degrading about the “skill” of our Finnish colleagues. That seems to be the theme in here when one disagrees with the other party's opinion. 

2 minuter sedan, WeDuX_ säger:

We are talking about NHL traits…..

Yes, and I'm talking about an arrogant attitude, and responded to it by calling you bad at something you had some pride in back in the 40s. Then there was something you could call “Sisu”, now the hardest you have is Wadepaananen dancing on tiktok. 

Edited Thursday at 07:57 PM by iSvamp

[Wpaanane]

ja takaisin yläkertaan

[iSvamp]

Just nu, Wpaanane säger:

ja takaisin yläkertaan

Dance for us

[pappeen-]

Just nu, Wpaanane säger:

ja takaisin yläkertaan

We are talking about NHL traits…..

[WeDuX_]

4 minuuttia sitten, pappeen- kirjoitti:

We are talking about NHL traits…..

*a picture*

 

38 minuuttia sitten, iSvamp kirjoitti:

Yes, you are absolutely right. 
I can take an example from my own life. 
I have worked in the Swedish Armed Forces for more years than many in here are old. 
Every damn year we are forced to train with soldiers from Finland. And yes, they have a rather low level of skill and training compared to many other countries in Northern Europe. The exercises are always boring, and their solutions to problems are very different from ours both tactically and strategically.
But now it is the case that NATO has decided that Finland is our forward operating area for the Swedish forces. Then it would be incredibly stupid to piss on your Finnish colleagues, when they do not share our values and our view of how things should be solved strategically. Because it is with these Finnish soldiers that we will die together when the shit hits the fan. I have to accept that the Finnish soldiers also have an opinion, and a right to think. If I don't, I am absolutely convinced that the Finnish soldiers will shoot me before the Russians do. 

What you are doing now in here is fucking sick. You sit and call people bad just because they do not share your opinion. Do you really think that the players in Core and NEO dare to write an opinion in here just because you are a bunch of arrogant little kids? 

Even Finns who have never won anything in here sit and call people bad. Come on, step up. And those who have won, they work with the same method. And it's almost more fucking pathetic.

*life story why Finnish people are so bad*

???

[xDoumi]

”This rule change across the board is based on community requests”

[l-Furyan-l]

10 minuter sedan, xDoumi säger:

”This rule change across the board is based on community requests”

To be fair (and I think it is always important to be exactly that when arguing different viewpoints) there were pages upon pages of people writing in "BanThemAll +1" before the last ECL.

We're talking up to almost 100 different posts of people saying exactly that. That was easily the most vocal group at the time and the group that were the most organized in getting their opinion across. Go back and check somewhere around Page 6 to like Page 10. This was something that was definitely requested by a lot of people.

And this is coming from someone who was initially against banning all traits.

Let's be fair, let's stick to facts and let's try to engage with the opposing parties best argument, not their worst ( = Swedes bad, no Finns bad, no Swedes bad etc.).

 

Edited Thursday at 08:21 PM by l-Furyan-l

[iSvamp]

I apologize if I offended anyone. I thought arrogance was the theme.

[sopulii04]

Just gonna make one observation about this topic: the confirmation bias on both sides is like insane 😂

It seems like the people who are for banning all abilities have a blindspot for anything negative with the change, while the opposite is true for anyone against the change.

(Examples: anyone who thinks "this will make the gameplay just forces and tips" is going to have that experience, because this is what they look for and go for all the time - even though the change isn't quite that radical. Anyone who thinks "this gameplay will be awesome" will just completely ignore the obvious fact that shots, especially one timers, are now COMICALLY bad. I think I've seen like 2 or 3 one timer goals in 10+ games from further out)

The more I think about it, the more I think the right solution is probably somewhere in the middle (only silver abilities for ECL Spring...?)

[Mikka]

I know reading comprehension levels worsen year by year in the society, but holy hell

For my confused finnish bretheren, I recommend googling some information about ”vertauskuva” or ”satiiri”, for example.

Oh yeah, we were talking about NHL traits and I’m totally making it a society-wide issue again, sorry (😢).

Let me start with a small reminder of what Kenu himself said:

6 hours ago, Kenu said:

If people want to or don't want to ban them all - please write your thoughts in this thread. The more constructive and well-reasoned you write, the easier it is to discuss.

Based on the recent messages it appears people seem to be pretty split on banning everything and banning just one or two things. I think it's a good idea to discuss what a happy medium could be that the majority would be happy with - or is there such a compromise available?

As I’ve tried to point out earlier as well, simply posting ”ban x but not y because everything is good right now” copy&pasted 5 times in a row is not constructive nor well-reasoned.

Just write something in any language you feel you can get your point across with, and then you’ll have an actual chance to affect something. Spelling doesn’t matter, the content of your message does. The things you’re actually trying to say.

 

Anyways, that’s enough about that for now.

 

I have personally found the game a lot more fun with the abilities banned, not being able to poke behind your back & teleport a few meters into a 1T animation. It has felt like you actually need to use your brain more in regards to how you position yourself and so on, as a few others have said here.

That being said, I somewhat get the point about 1T forcing teams to defend more aggressively. Banning only the golden abilities could be a fine compromise like some have suggested here. Still, I’d first like to see some actual competitive games to really see the effects, as we now will with these national leagues.

I know I’ll get misunderstood more or less intentionally by some, but let me cap this tirade off with another Kenu quote:

6 hours ago, Kenu said:

Would love for those who are playing in the FCL, GCL, SCL, and WECL (or outside of these National leagues) to give this "ban them all" approach a real chance for the next few days and make your conclusions based on experience from playing for a few days and see how it feels.

From what I’ve gathered (feel free to correct me if I’m wrong), a good portion of the top players currently (still) refuse to practice (or at least play drafts) without abilities, even though they have registered for FCL.

I know you have probably tried a few games here and there & have a lot of expectations and ideas about what the gameplay will be, but come on now.

Give it a proper try, and then come back here with your informed opinion.

Every time the meta changes, playstyles take a little while to evolve. Just think about the beginning of every NHL that has seen a noticeable change in gameplay.

Finally & lastly,

posting screenshots where the opponent is clearly fooling around is useless, get some real gameplay from proper games and then make your case – or don’t. Writing this has once again been way too time consuming for the amount of care I have for whether there are any bans or not – all options are tolerable, even though I do currently enjoy the bans the most.

[antoniomannen004]

2 minuter sedan, sopulii04 säger:

Just gonna make one observation about this topic: the confirmation bias on both sides is like insane 😂

It seems like the people who are for banning all abilities have a blindspot for anything negative with the change, while the opposite is true for anyone against the change.

(Examples: anyone who thinks "this will make the gameplay just forces and tips" is going to have that experience, because this is what they look for and go for all the time - even though the change isn't quite that radical. Anyone who thinks "this gameplay will be awesome" will just completely ignore the obvious fact that shots, especially one timers, are now COMICALLY bad. I think I've seen like 2 or 3 one timer goals in 10+ games from further out)

The more I think about it, the more I think the right solution is probably somewhere in the middle (only silver abilities for ECL Spring...?)

U are maybe correct?

The problem with this is

If u enjoy abilities there is always gonna be a problem with some goals going in because of it! Nothing in this game is completely well done and thought through correctly. With every 7 gold one tees that go in cleanly like they should there will be 3-4 that go through the goalie

But on the other hand is if you enjoy no abilities is that gameplay is not gonna be perfect either

With every 7 one tee u score cleanly without any abilities u will miss 3-4 open nets on them aswell that should go in

The game is far from perfect nothing we are gonna get through this discussion will lead to "perfection" u just simply have to state what you find the most reasonable and what you prefer.

[xDoumi]

1 tunti sitten, l-Furyan-l kirjoitti:

To be fair (and I think it is always important to be exactly that when arguing different viewpoints) there were pages upon pages of people writing in "BanThemAll +1" before the last ECL.

We're talking up to almost 100 different posts of people saying exactly that. That was easily the most vocal group at the time and the group that were the most organized in getting their opinion across. Go back and check somewhere around Page 6 to like Page 10. This was something that was definitely requested by a lot of people.

And this is coming from someone who was initially against banning all traits.

Let's be fair, let's stick to facts and let's try to engage with the opposing parties best argument, not their worst ( = Swedes bad, no Finns bad, no Swedes bad etc.).

 

I kinda understand the decision gamer made since FCL are open for everyone and the majority of players below elite wants everything to be banned. However if we will see another ECL season, we gotta change the bans atleast for elite because most of the players playing in there wants that.

[l-Furyan-l]

28 minuter sedan, sopulii04 säger:

Just gonna make one observation about this topic: the confirmation bias on both sides is like insane 😂

It seems like the people who are for banning all abilities have a blindspot for anything negative with the change, while the opposite is true for anyone against the change.

(Examples: anyone who thinks "this will make the gameplay just forces and tips" is going to have that experience, because this is what they look for and go for all the time - even though the change isn't quite that radical. Anyone who thinks "this gameplay will be awesome" will just completely ignore the obvious fact that shots, especially one timers, are now COMICALLY bad. I think I've seen like 2 or 3 one timer goals in 10+ games from further out)

The more I think about it, the more I think the right solution is probably somewhere in the middle (only silver abilities for ECL Spring...?)

 

While I agree with the general gist of your post, I was curious about the part I bolded above.

Just for reference sake, have you tried playing with Snipers (or other "shooting" builds) that are able to raise their slapshot pow/acc up to... say 94/94? Or at the very least 90+ on each? Because we have, and we're seeing plenty of One-Tees from further out go in.

Like... at least one a game, pretty much. At the very least a lot more than what you are describing with the 2/3 One-Tee goals in 10+ games.

I think a key part with fully embracing the no-traits meta (or, at least giving it a proper chance) is realizing that you can no longer rely on having a build that is "good but not great" across the board, like the PMD, and then have attributes like passing, poke-check or shooting at around 85, expecting them to be as effective as they were with the traits on. You need to actually commit and boost the attributes you value up to 90 or over to get the proper effectiveness, sacrificing other attributes in the process.

I'm not saying you haven't tried this, my point is not to question any one individual or team.

My point is a general one:  if teams are trying to run the exact same meta as they did when they had traits, with similar builds and point distribution, then that will inevitably lead to disappointment. This is a great opportunity to branch out and really try and push what this NHL gameplay can be. That is how I am approaching it, at least.

 

--------

 

23 minuter sedan, Mikka säger:

I know reading comprehension levels worsen year by year in the society, but holy hell

For my confused finnish bretheren, I recommend googling some information about ”vertauskuva” or ”satiiri”, for example.

Oh yeah, we were talking about NHL traits and I’m totally making it a society-wide issue again, sorry (😢).

Let me start with a small reminder of what Kenu himself said:

As I’ve tried to point out earlier as well, simply posting ”ban x but not y because everything is good right now” copy&pasted 5 times in a row is not constructive nor well-reasoned.

Just write something in any language you feel you can get your point across with, and then you’ll have an actual chance to affect something. Spelling doesn’t matter, the content of your message does. The things you’re actually trying to say.

 

Anyways, that’s enough about that for now.

 

I have personally found the game a lot more fun with the abilities banned, not being able to poke behind your back & teleport a few meters into a 1T animation. It has felt like you actually need to use your brain more in regards to how you position yourself and so on, as a few others have said here.

That being said, I somewhat get the point about 1T forcing teams to defend more aggressively. Banning only the golden abilities could be a fine compromise like some have suggested here. Still, I’d first like to see some actual competitive games to really see the effects, as we now will with these national leagues.

I know I’ll get misunderstood more or less intentionally by some, but let me cap this tirade off with another Kenu quote:

From what I’ve gathered (feel free to correct me if I’m wrong), a good portion of the top players currently (still) refuse to practice (or at least play drafts) without abilities, even though they have registered for FCL.

I know you have probably tried a few games here and there & have a lot of expectations and ideas about what the gameplay will be, but come on now.

Give it a proper try, and then come back here with your informed opinion.

Every time the meta changes, playstyles take a little while to evolve. Just think about the beginning of every NHL that has seen a noticeable change in gameplay.

Finally & lastly,

posting screenshots where the opponent is clearly fooling around is useless, get some real gameplay from proper games and then make your case – or don’t. Writing this has once again been way too time consuming for the amount of care I have for whether there are any bans or not – all options are tolerable, even though I do currently enjoy the bans the most.

 

Fantastic post. No notes. 10/10.

Edited Thursday at 09:54 PM by l-Furyan-l

[antoniomannen004]

8 minuter sedan, xDoumi säger:

I kinda understand the decision gamer made since FCL are open for everyone and the majority of players below elite wants everything to be banned. However if we will see another ECL season, we gotta change the bans atleast for elite because most of the players playing in there wants that.

Yes doumi a poll is probably right to settle it, and by the looks of it yes many Elite players want abilities allowed and Abilties probably will be allowed. And i atleast will accept and adapt (cant speak for everyone).

But the thing i'm trying to lift is that it feels like the vote will be a bit "meh" cause what i have gathered and understood is some guys have already made up their mind completely, so even tho they enjoy the switch they will probably just stick by what they once said and make their best efforts to find problems in that gameplay while trying to find the best excuses for the problems in the other one. 

But if minds are made up ofc ppl cant change them and everyone then needs to accept that we get nothing from throwing tomatoes at eachothers faces.

Just a bit sad that this is where it probably goes 

 

Edited Thursday at 09:57 PM by antoniomannen004

[xDoumi]

5 tuntia sitten, tbnantti kirjoitti:

I don’t know how many polls we need to arrange to come to the conclusion that the majority (of the top two leagues at least) are in favor of keeping things as they are with only Big Tipper being banned.

Or are we voting until we come to a conclusion that satisfies SG by banning them all? That’s what it feels like.
 

I’m in favor of keeping things untouched from the previous ECL, for reasons mentioned in my previous post. The gameplay is more open with X-Factors. 

Fantastic post 5/5

[xDoumi]

26 minuuttia sitten, antoniomannen004 kirjoitti:

Yes doumi a poll is probably right to settle it, and by the looks of it yes many Elite players want abilities allowed and Abilties probably will be allowed. And i atleast will accept and adapt (cant speak for everyone).

But the thing i'm trying to lift is that it feels like the vote will be a bit "meh" cause what i have gathered and understood is some guys have already made up their mind completely, so even tho they enjoy the switch they will probably just stick by what they once said and make their best efforts to find problems in that gameplay will trying to find the best excuses for the problems in the other one. 

But if minds are made up ofc ppl cant change them and everyone then needs to accept that we get nothing from throwing tomatoes at eachothers faces.

Just a bit sad that this is where it probably goes 

 

I dont really think thats the case, gameplay which is made for traits just playing by off them feels off. Better option for sure would have been to change everything to silver but it its what it is for now i guess 🤷🏽‍♂️ 

Personally i dont really care how FCL are being played since youre basically playing for bag of pucks and its free to play. + Majority of players lower than elite which this tournament lives by on wants everything to be banned so lets live by the rules for now!

Edited Thursday at 10:22 PM by xDoumi