Player Ability Bans - ECL '25 Season Discussion

[Andjovis]

BanTheMall +1

[Bombo Clap]

Ban them all +1

[Fidelvv]

Banthemall +1

[Ruiskukka59]

BanThemAll +1

[Hannu]

BanThemAll +1

[I3Isjodin]

BanThemAll +1

[HambergD]

På 2024-10-25 på 13:40, markalla2 säger:

After giving it some thought and reading others' takes on this... I'm also team BanThemAll. And here's the reasoning why:

The whole X-Factor ability shenanigans were added to the game in order to highlight superstar players with their superstar abilities. I totally understand that concept from an offline mode or online versus point of view, it's a great addition and does what it's supposed to do: recognize greatness. But in WOC game modes, we don't need that at all - everybody can already spend their XP however they see fit under the ruleset of preset builds and be the superstar they want (even though I'd love to see the return of the old custom build system). In WOC the X-Factors don't make anyone a superstar in the way they were intended in the first place if evvvveryone on the ice has them. What the X-Factors bring in 6s especially is instead

1. lower skill gap
2. RNG to a vast variety of in-game scenarios
3. an even stronger meta for each wingers, centers, defencedudes & goalies where everyone exploits weaknesses in the game

Therefore a competitive setting with no superpower abilities would balance not only the meta but also the dreadful RNG. EA made the decision on our behalf to remove EE from WOC, which, if you think about it for a second, is actually is a huge step towards the direction I'm suggesting here. And absolutely nobody is complaining about it. Now it's all about finishing what EA started this year and play without the honestly quite unnecessary X-Factor abilities in 6s.

Ban them all! 

[banglahoor]

BanThemAll +1

[pakjiz]

banthemall

 

[lutuniemi]

DontBanAnything

[minokin]

BanThemAll +1

But, potentially unpopular opinion for future games:

Bring back the pre-made builds from NHL 16 or don't have any builds at all. I personally do not like when the outcome potentially gets decided on your skills of building your character. One may argue that you instead move the responsibility for the meta to the developers but hear me out

I draw my eyes to how a game like Rocket League survives - the meta building comes mainly from how the game is played and how skilled you are at handling the mechanics. I am aware that the comparison is not fair due to wildly different games and I do know that the biggest deciding factor to the outcome in our game is how good you and your team plays/can handle the mechanics, but I want to catch the jist of it

I want a game where the competitive scene has as little intervention from manipulated stats, RNG and other factors that can be manipulated as possible. Of course RL has their tweaking to stats and what not, but I find it more controlled since the player can only manipulate it to a very limited extent

Of course there are other ways to get an edge - like how you set up your game, which hardware you use etc but what I personally don't want is a game where the actual game is to have a setup master race even though it is inevitable. But maybe minimizing it makes for a more even playfield

[Kozeec]

BanThemAll +1

[svetidaje]

BanThemAll +1 

[Janikka]

1 tunti sitten, minokin kirjoitti:

BanThemAll +1

But, potentially unpopular opinion for future games:

Bring back the pre-made builds from NHL 16 or don't have any builds at all. I personally do not like when the outcome potentially gets decided on your skills of building your character. One may argue that you instead move the responsibility for the meta to the developers but hear me out

I draw my eyes to how a game like Rocket League survives - the meta building comes mainly from how the game is played and how skilled you are at handling the mechanics. I am aware that the comparison is not fair due to wildly different games and I do know that the biggest deciding factor to the outcome in our game is how good you and your team plays/can handle the mechanics, but I want to catch the jist of it

I want a game where the competitive scene has as little intervention from manipulated stats, RNG and other factors that can be manipulated as possible. Of course RL has their tweaking to stats and what not, but I find it more controlled since the player can only manipulate it to a very limited extent

Of course there are other ways to get an edge - like how you set up your game, which hardware you use etc but what I personally don't want is a game where the actual game is to have a setup master race even though it is inevitable. But maybe minimizing it makes for a more even playfield

I think Rocket League is about as close as you can get to a pure skill-based game in anything remotely similar to NHL. I know a lot of people think a hockey game should have a lot of randomness to it because it's in the nature of the sport, but personally I wish EA took a page out of Psyonix's book to better cater to those of us dreaming of an unadulterated competitive experience where outcomes are determined almost exclusively by our actions (of course some other variables are inevitable, such as how lag compensation is implemented in the netcode).

[MartindalexC]

17 hours ago, Janikka said:

I think Rocket League is about as close as you can get to a pure skill-based game in anything remotely similar to NHL. I know a lot of people think a hockey game should have a lot of randomness to it because it's in the nature of the sport, but personally I wish EA took a page out of Psyonix's book to better cater to those of us dreaming of an unadulterated competitive experience where outcomes are determined almost exclusively by our actions (of course some other variables are inevitable, such as how lag compensation is implemented in the netcode).

The problem with that comparison is that RL lends itself to be 'purely skill based' by virtue of the game itself. You control everything about the car and don't have to rely on any assistance from the game. Meanwhile in NHL, you have to rely on the game for quite a lot because how do you for instance make puck receptions fully manual? 

I think it was mentioned earlier by someone but tbh, one of the issues we have right now is that people are straight up allergic to trying anything different in the game and figuring out the mechanics that underpin things. EA may actually change something by quite a substantial amount, but it takes an absolute age for a new trait / build to gain any traction because there's this weird zeitgeist that unless the absolute top players use it then it's pointless, and then conversely if they do use something then it MUST be good. It's a shame because I think there's a lot to be gained by people if they embraced the jank in the game and fiddled around with builds to get something that works for them. Like, not to burst people's bubbles but you ain't beating FILA / Tunnel / Hreds by playing their game with their builds, if you could then you'd be a top 3/4 team as well, but you're not so try different stuff pls tyvm. 

Edited November 1 by MartindalexC

[Janikka]

1 tunti sitten, MartindalexC kirjoitti:

The problem with that comparison is that RL lends itself to be 'purely skill based' by virtue of game itself. You control everything about the car and don't have to rely on any assistance from the game. Meanwhile in NHL, you have to rely on the game for quite a lot because how do you for instance make puck receptions fully manual?

My ideal is just eliminating as much of the randomness as possible. Of course, the randomness isn't exactly random under the hood, but various competing factors coming together to produce each outcome. This is reflected to players as perceived randomness.

Regardless, puck receptions are a good example. I don't see it as a dichotomy between what we have now and making them fully manual, whatever that would entail. The outcome of puck receptions could be far more straightforward. It currently involves too many variables that contribute to the perceived randomness, and the interaction of some of those variables is poorly designed. As a player, you can still account for a lot of them, but all of them put together lead to gameplay that's far less predictable than it could be. This is why the outcomes often feel somewhat out of control for the player.

Taking a page out of Psyonix's book doesn't mean upending the whole game and having to figure out impossible mechanics for each action, such as making pass receptions fully manual. It means a departure from EA's current design philosophy where the various mechanics are confused by too many factors that don't play together so well.

The Abilities are a good example of this, by the way. They clash with the game's core mechanics by overpowering them, which makes the core mechanics less reliable and thus seemingly more random. This is reflected to everyone on the ice from goalies (as an example, think of perfect positioning not always leading to the expected outcome due to Close Quarters) to defensemen (being in position for an interception or disruption that gets overrided by the abrupt speed boost and physics-defying phantom stick afforded by some of the shooting traits) and forwards (beating a defenseman only to have Stick 'Em Up cleanly dislodge the puck at an impossible angle).

Edited November 1 by Janikka

[markalla2]

3 tuntia sitten, Janikka kirjoitti:

My ideal is just eliminating as much of the randomness as possible. Of course, the randomness isn't exactly random under the hood, but various competing factors coming together to produce each outcome. This is reflected to players as perceived randomness.

Regardless, puck receptions are a good example. I don't see it as a dichotomy between what we have now and making them fully manual, whatever that would entail. The outcome of puck receptions could be far more straightforward. It currently involves too many variables that contribute to the perceived randomness, and the interaction of some of those variables is poorly designed. As a player, you can still account for a lot of them, but all of them put together lead to gameplay that's far less predictable than it could be. This is why the outcomes often feel somewhat out of control for the player.

Taking a page out of Psyonix's book doesn't mean upending the whole game and having to figure out impossible mechanics for each action, such as making pass receptions fully manual. It means a departure from EA's current design philosophy where the various mechanics are confused by too many factors that don't play together so well.

The Abilities are a good example of this, by the way. They clash with the game's core mechanics by overpowering them, which makes the core mechanics less reliable and thus seemingly more random. This is reflected to everyone on the ice from goalies (as an example, think of perfect positioning not always leading to the expected outcome due to Close Quarters) to defensemen (being in position for an interception or disruption that gets overrided by the abrupt speed boost and physics-defying phantom stick afforded by some of the shooting traits) and forwards (beating a defenseman only to have Stick 'Em Up cleanly dislodge the puck at an impossible angle).

Couldn't agree more with both @MartindalexC & @Janikka. This year player height & weight affect way more than before but I've seen like 2-3 guys using a bigger forward build. For a few weeks I've been rocking a 193cm 81.5kg TWF at center and highly recommend giving it a try, also comes with some broken ass animations while puck protect + L2  

For me this conversation is all about removing the RNG/unpredictable outcomes all over the ice that XF abilities cause like @Janikka described in detail. I also understand @Kenu's approach that we play the game as EA has intended but in 6s EA's intentions aren't catered towards competitive play at all. SG announced that there will be new tournament concepts during this year's cycle and I really hope we try playing without abilities at some point. I can imagine it being as fun as NHL10-14 EASHL was.

The only downside I can think of is finding games during the transition phase, I'm afraid teams without abilities would often match up with teams still rocking all 3 ability slots. There are 10 loadout slots so maybe creating duplicate builds with & without abilities is a quick fix.

Edited November 1 by markalla2

[vaappu95]

BanThemAll +1