How many ECL divisions should there be?

[vSilenttio]

I dont understand why the "easy way to the top" is the main subject here right now. Like, no one has said that the "new teams" should get promoted asap. They still need to win games and qualify from Pro to Elite.

All I'm saying is like @iSvamp said, requiring like over one year to compete in the highest level, is just nonsense when we are talking about as small scene as we have in our hands.

How about the opinions on the actual matter of subject? Four divisions or three, and how many seasons per year if there would be four.

After all I like the current system but it won't hurt to fix it as it needs to be fixed at some point, as the current system was builded like four years ago when NHLGamer had under 80 teams playing ECL. And how many we have right now? Exactly... A lot more than that.

Edited August 21, 2019 by vSilenttio

[ahonaattorii]

2 tuntia sitten, vSilenttio kirjoitti:

I dont understand why the "easy way to the top" is the main subject here right now. Like, no one has said that the "new teams" should get promoted asap. They still need to win games and qualify from Pro to Elite.

All I'm saying is like @iSvamp said, requiring like over one year to compete in the highest level, is just nonsense when we are talking about as small scene as we have in our hands.

How about the opinions on the actual matter of subject? Four divisions or three, and how many seasons per year if there would be four.

After all I like the current system but it won't hurt to fix it as it needs to be fixed at some point, as the current system was builed like four years ago when NHLGamer had under 80 teams playing ECL. And how many we have right now? Exactly... A lot more than that.

Exactly. Main point is number of divisions... Last season there were about 80 teams just in Lite. So size of Lite is about the same than what was whole ECL when community decided to split it in three divisions. 80-100 teams division makes no sense...at least not at its current form.

I have seen 0 good speach of why there should be just 3 divisions. If we want that Elite dudes can join straight to Pro or Elite with new club, we can do so no matter is there four or even five divisions.

Edited August 21, 2019 by ahonaattori

[Pursuitti]

My opinions:

ECL Elite: 16 teams

ECL Pro: 16 teams

ECL ''Semi Pro'': 32 teams or more

ECL Lite: Rest

3 ECL tournaments per NHL

If 4 divisions system happens in future, I want to see only 16 teams in Pro. That would of course give much more tight matchups than it does now and it could develop those teams more who gets promoted to Elite.

[FlyerKungen]

I don't really care about amount of ECL Divisions, but the wise amount of ECL tournaments per NHL depends so much how many other Leagues Mr @Kenu is going to host in NHL 20. Ofc as many as possible, but I am still that type of player who wants to participate to every money tournament out there & playing ECL/FCL/SCL tournaments at the same time is not an option, imo. Those tournaments needs their own value & LAN events. At least 2x ECL Elite, FCL, SCL, IS Cup (?), any possible new Leagues with prizes?

With good organizing, three ECL tourneys is possible for sure, but the real question is, is there really time for that in NHL 20? I don't have any inside news about amount of the different Leagues in NHL 20, but from what I've heard, NHLGamer is going to keep us as active as possible in future. 😎

[Juizki]

I think it's better to divide lite in multiple groups rather than make more divisions, unless we'll found some absolutely fool proof way of deciding into which division each new team should go to.

 

I think not getting from lite to elite fast enough is a valid argument. Not saying it should be fast and easy, but it should be difficult only for the right reasons. Having to be good enough and practicing, for example. It shouldn't feel difficult just because it's slow. @iSvamp used Vesa Pompa as an example: they were placed into lite despite being way too much of an overkill for that division, just like Oton Letkutemppu.

 

It is frustrating as fuck having to play against teams that don't stand a chance against you, unless they get extremely lucky. There is nothing competitive, developing or exciting going into the games knowing it's one of those nights you just have to get over with and there's nothing for you to win, just to lose. It's something you see in pro as well, now imagine going through three divisions like that before getting to elite. And if you fail in just one playoff series, as teams underperform and get seeded lower than they should, you'll repeat that same division all over again.

 

Edited August 21, 2019 by Juizki

[vSilenttio]

38 minuuttia sitten, FlyerKungen kirjoitti:

With good organizing, three ECL tourneys is possible for sure, but the real question is, is there really time for that in NHL 20? I don't have any inside news about amount of the different Leagues in NHL 20, but from what I've heard, NHLGamer is going to keep us as active as possible in future. 😎

This is it - the organizing. And to answer your real question; there should be time for that! I know that the people who run this shit (Kenu & friends) are not doing this for big money or anything like that, but NHL19 was pretty succesful what it comes to possibility to play competitive hockey in NHLGamer. However, we haven't seen any ECL hockey since March and that fucking sucks.

For me this has always been a problem: the last big tourney of an NHL game ends around March, and the next major level tournament starts six months later in late October, and then we have six months (with breaks included) to play those two tournaments. This is not KHL. If there's never going to be three ECL's which some people want here - we should keep these two current main leagues far away from each other. What I'm saying is that if we start the first ECL in October, the next ECL after that should definitely start in the next March - not end there. Like, how about if we keep those blahblah (Spring League.. never again pls) and these native (FCL, SCL) tourneys between these two major tourneys, or/and during the summer. Spring League -> Summer League and if/when the Summer Cup has to be there too, keep that shit shorter instead of important leagues.

For me atleast it would be cool as hell to start and end the NHL gaming year with ECL. Also maybe that's how the gamers would stay more motivated during the long year. For an example, even though your team do shit in the first ECL and then in the native tourney you do little bit better but still fail, you still have the third shot in the Spring time ECL.

Oops, little offtopic but I got nothing better to do so whatever...

[ahonaattorii]

57 minuuttia sitten, Juizki kirjoitti:

I think it's better to divide lite in multiple groups rather than make more divisions, unless we'll found some absolutely fool proof way of deciding into which division each new team should go to.

 

I think not getting from lite to elite fast enough is a valid argument. Not saying it should be fast and easy, but it should be difficult only for the right reasons. Having to be good enough and practicing, for example. It shouldn't feel difficult just because it's slow. @iSvamp used Vesa Pompa as an example: they were placed into lite despite being way too much of an overkill for that division, just like Oton Letkutemppu.

 

It is frustrating as fuck having to play against teams that don't stand a chance against you, unless they get extremely lucky. There is nothing competitive, developing or exciting going into the games knowing it's one of those nights you just have to get over with and there's nothing for you to win, just to lose. It's something you see in pro as well, now imagine going through three divisions like that before getting to elite. And if you fail in just one playoff series, as teams underperform and get seeded lower than they should, you'll repeat that same division all over again.

 

Like i said before. Vesa Pompa is not a good example for you guys. First of all, they didn`t even raise to PRO on their first season. At their first season in ECL Lite they played with team name Lehmannen Badboyz and managed to gain 19 points in 16 games.  Second season they gained 36 points in 26 games. Is this the team that should have start in Elite or what?  They have got better during this time, but when they started... they were not clearly better than some Lite teams. In fact my team played both of those seasons in same group with those guys and during that time my team gained more points.

Just because some team has Elite level player or two does not mean that the team is Elite level.

Can i ask, how would you evaluate who should start in Lite/Pro/Elite? 

E: and if the problem is that there is too many good players playing at lower levels, shouldnt we talk about taking more teams to Pro and Elite?

Edited August 21, 2019 by ahonaattori

[vSilenttio]

2 tuntia sitten, ahonaattori kirjoitti:

shouldnt we talk about taking more teams to Pro and Elite?

No. No discussion.

Edited August 21, 2019 by vSilenttio

[Tinkesakara]

Elite 16

Pro 32

SemiPro 32

Lite Others

💪😎

[Jesus]

I mean, if you really wanna balance out the division you have to make Elite/Pro bigger.

If you just add a fouth division without adding teams to pro you still have about 40/40 in semi-pro/lite. You haven't changed anything. What is the point?

 

[KingOfApes_]

1 tunti sitten, Jesus kirjoitti:

I mean, if you really wanna balance out the division you have to make Elite/Pro bigger.

If you just add a fouth division without adding teams to pro you still have about 40/40 in semi-pro/lite. You haven't changed anything. What is the point?

 

We had this divisions system because elite players/teams wanted to have tighter regular season so bringing more pro teams to elite is only going to cause more lvl differents between top and bottom. Its good if we wanna see more scores to score but bad for the title ”elite”. 

[vSilenttio]

No offense, but the fact is that Elite wouldn't be elite if there would be like 24 or 32 teams. Same thing with Pro. Right now the most of our teams in this scene are Pro/Lite teams, not Elite so it would make zero sense to grow Elite only because there's more lower level teams these days. And if someone bases their opinion on a day dream where every lower level team would magically be Elite/High pro - then you can keep on day dreaming. And this is not me being a dick, just saying how it is as someone needs to say it out loud (with KingofApes).

Haven't changed anything? Um, the value of first three divisions would obviously grow and the match schedule would be partly the same for the top three divisions.

Elite 16, Pro 32, Lite 32, The Rest XX (the hungry, the ugly and the dads). This system would be as competitive as it ever could be for top80 teams which is about the same amount of teams NHLGamer had in it's first division season (ECL4). How's that no progress?

I get that some people would like to have every possible team in the higher level but at that point the whole reason of having divisions would pretty much disappear.

Edited August 22, 2019 by vSilenttio

[Lauri]

8 hours ago, Jesus said:

I mean, if you really wanna balance out the division you have to make Elite/Pro bigger.

If you just add a fouth division without adding teams to pro you still have about 40/40 in semi-pro/lite. You haven't changed anything. What is the point?

 

Still having hard time grasping what would make elite/pro more balanced adding more teams to them, since for me it seems there is quite a large cap between top 3 and the bottom 3(in elite at least) and changing the semi pro/lite would mean the regular season wouldn't be as draining playing 1000000 games with tbh no actual point since everyone gets to playoffs

[Lionite]

On 8/21/2019 at 2:28 AM, gzell60 said:

Increase ECL Pro to 48 teams and keep the existing structure.

Yes. Expanding PRO to 48 teams and keeping ELITE and LITE as they are now would be my way to go about it aswell. Just add third ECL season into lifespan of one NHL title.

ELITE - Best of the best
PRO - ELITE contenders and LITE proven teams
LITE - New and just-for-fun teams

I don't see what value adding forth division would bring, except for another hoop for teams to jump through with already limited time table for ECL tournaments.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Lionite

[JUHA2002]

Same as Lionite wrote. 

[ahonaattorii]

12 tuntia sitten, Jesus kirjoitti:

I mean, if you really wanna balance out the division you have to make Elite/Pro bigger.

If you just add a fouth division without adding teams to pro you still have about 40/40 in semi-pro/lite. You haven't changed anything. What is the point?

 

The point is that it is not fun to play against teams that are on totally different level. Skill cap between 80 teams is just too big. There is teams that have played together for years and teams that have players who are still learning buttons.

[Tehh]

Can we add one division above elite for Team seppo and team plee to even the elite division 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Lionite]

1 hour ago, ahonaattori said:

The point is that it is not fun to play against teams that are on totally different level. Skill cap between 80 teams is just too big. There is teams that have played together for years and teams that have players who are still learning buttons.

That skill cap is always going to be there when elite and pro teams disband, and players from those teams start new teams. Creating new division just for that reason would go against the idea of divisions in the first place; encourage teams to stay together longer and not do exactly that, disband and make new team every season.

[ahonaattorii]

13 minuuttia sitten, Lionite kirjoitti:

That skill cap is always going to be there when elite and pro teams disband, and players from those teams start new teams. Creating new division just for that reason would go against the idea of divisions in the first place; encourage teams to stay together longer and not do exactly that, disband and make new team every season.

Looks like you have missed the point that with 4 divisions these new teams would not have to start at the lowest level. With 3 divisions options are 1. make those Elite guys start in Lite with new comers who barely now the buttons. 2. Let Elite guys start in PRO... but on my opinion this encourages to break up teams and start new ones too much. But if there is just two season per NHL i kind of get that it is necessary to be able to start in Pro. But hey, we want and need more ECL seasons. Cut off other tournaments if needed.

And i seriously dont get with what logic have you got to conclusion that it would encourage teams to disband. It does the opposite.

[iRSPe]

I'm glad to see that there is so many future Elite teams coming to Lite next season! It will be interesting to watch how many of those will dig their way out after ~8 playoff rounds 😂

I think the best option could be:

Elite: 16

Pro: 32

Semi: 32 (Lite top 20, relegated teams from Pro and Elite teams)

Lite: 50+

 

[Lionite]

1 hour ago, ahonaattori said:

Looks like you have missed the point that with 4 divisions these new teams would not have to start at the lowest level. With 3 divisions options are 1. make those Elite guys start in Lite with new comers who barely now the buttons. 2. Let Elite guys start in PRO... but on my opinion this encourages to break up teams and start new ones too much. But if there is just two season per NHL i kind of get that it is necessary to be able to start in Pro. But hey, we want and need more ECL seasons. Cut off other tournaments if needed.

And i seriously dont get with what logic have you got to conclusion that it would encourage teams to disband. It does the opposite.

And it looks like you missed my point that a new team should absolutely always start from the lowest level. It's not encouraging that you don't have to start from the bottom with a new team? If there is division that you can just skip with your new team because you've played in a good team in the past? Does all new teams start from this new division or just some? If not all, how do you differentiate who gets to start from where? Face value?

Looking forward a bit, if that new division has a team limit, such as 32 or whatever was suggested, someday that's going to become full like Pro is now. So do we then start to drop teams already there to Lite or don't let Lite champions promote, when by that same criteria (again; face value ?) one of these allegedly new better teams gets formed again and they should get to skip Lite and go straight to this new division? Or do we then just make 5th division to circumvent this exact same "problem" again? Or do we close our eyes and ears and believe hard enough that when number of teams and players rise, number good players doesn't and this will not be problem again in the future?

I think that new teams should start from bottom of division table, and if they are good enough, they will get promoted. If they don't, then they clearly ain't good enough or as good as they think. Almost all teams got into playoffs last season in Lite, and i don't believe you can win or lose whole best-of-7 playoff series entirely by luck.

3 divisions and if there is 3rd ECL season in a future, it's possible to make it into Elite in the same NHL game's lifespan.

[Jaks_10]

51 minuuttia sitten, Lionite kirjoitti:

I think that new teams should start from bottom of division table, and if they are good enough, they will get promoted. If they don't, then they clearly ain't good enough or as good as they think. Almost all teams got into playoffs last season in Lite, and i don't believe you can win or lose whole best-of-7 playoff series entirely by luck.

This point right here 🙌

[ahonaattorii]

49 minuuttia sitten, Lionite kirjoitti:

And it looks like you missed my point that a new team should absolutely always start from the lowest level. It's not encouraging that you don't have to start from the bottom with a new team? If there is division that you can just skip with your new team because you've played in a good team in the past? Does all new teams start from this new division or just some? If not all, how do you differentiate who gets to start from where? Face value?

Looking forward a bit, if that new division has a team limit, such as 32 or whatever was suggested, someday that's going to become full like Pro is now. So do we then start to drop teams already there to Lite or don't let Lite champions promote, when by that same criteria (again; face value ?) one of these allegedly new better teams gets formed again and they should get to skip Lite and go straight to this new division? Or do we then just make 5th division to circumvent this exact same "problem" again? Or do we close our eyes and ears and believe hard enough that when number of teams and players rise, number good players doesn't and this will not be problem again in the future?

I think that new teams should start from bottom of division table, and if they are good enough, they will get promoted. If they don't, then they clearly ain't good enough or as good as they think. Almost all teams got into playoffs last season in Lite, and i don't believe you can win or lose whole best-of-7 playoff series entirely by luck.

3 divisions and if there is 3rd ECL season in a future, it's possible to make it into Elite in the same NHL game's lifespan.

I am not sure what is best way to decide what teams should start where. Maybe it is face factor or experience points or something else. I think number of teams in divisions dont have to be carved in stone. If there is some new Elite teams they can take a spot from Semi and those teams can be added to that 32 team division. Its no biggie is there 32, 33, 34 or even 36 teams in a division.

I think 4 divisions is good number and then we can start making divisions bigger if we see that its the best solution.

[Juizki]

On 8/21/2019 at 5:20 PM, ahonaattori said:

Is this the team that should have start in Elite or what?

Let's not get silly here. 

 

On 8/21/2019 at 5:20 PM, ahonaattori said:

Can i ask, how would you evaluate who should start in Lite/Pro/Elite? 

Wasn't this like the whole point of my previous post? Basically there is no fool proof way to determine in which division each team should begin. Therefore it'd be great not to have too many divisions as it can be a real route of suffering for those who are new but good, or have developed a lot during the off-season. 

 

On 8/22/2019 at 10:06 AM, Lionite said:

Yes. Expanding PRO to 48 teams and keeping ELITE and LITE as they are now would be my way to go about it aswell.

This could work. I think we should also increase the amount of teams being relegated to Lite and promoted to Pro, no matter if we extend the Pro division or not. This way we wouldn't have Pro level teams being stuck in Lite because there are too many of them competing against each other.

 

Especially by extending Pro to 48 we could even do something as radical as promoting and relegating 12 teams in a season, which is 1/4 of the division, just like 4/16 in Elite. You could have 1 or 2 teams with least points being relegated automatically, then let the rest play a 7 game series for the promotion/relegation. That way we would know for sure who belongs to Pro and who doesn't. This way we could also throw all the new teams into Lite (if we want to implement a rule like that) and they would get promoted for sure after their first season if they are top-Pro/Elite -caliber. 

Edited August 24, 2019 by Juizki

[Tzon93]

 

Is there a problem with setting up new teams? should we do something about the twist that is when "experienced" players set up new Teams? Should there be more focus on "organization" thinking at the pro and elite levels? i don't think the team that comes new to the scene has a problem starting at lite level. could we limit the formation of new pro-level gangs through license fees? "Professional license" for pro and elite teams which is paid once ?

And everytime  if u make new team u  need start to lite i think That is important .

i dont know how ”license payments” will work but i think NHL Gamer need money to give us to more ”professional vr hockey ” happenings in future  .

 

I love seeing several teams in this scene that have been around for years. that's where we need to take this scene: towards "more professional" gaming

i think 3 division is good maybe 4 if needed but we need do something to 

players who allways rebuild teams 

Edited August 26, 2019 by Tzon93