J-Foppa
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News Record Comments posted by J-Foppa
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Changing again? Tournament has not started. Why so sensitive to tournament start, that hasn't stopped you before
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4 minuter sedan, Mikka säger:
I don't see changing anything mid-season as a good thing, but I don't see that anything was changed mid-season either. For teams that finished 13-16 in Pro, the only thing that changed compared to the old system was that they get more time to train and improve their roster & morale before having to prove to be worthy of their Pro spots. For the 12th place team, "oh fuck, we have an extra mini-tourney to play before next season to prove that we're still good enough to play in Pro", which obiviously is a bit of an unpleasant surprise but I mean they weren't confirmed to finish 12th when this was announced, so they could've still played better and finished higher to avoid all this. .
First: I still don't see an argument as to why it was better to announce it mid-season. Now you say there were no changes? Okay, I will argue otherwise.
Thy changed alot of things after the season was underway (hence mid-season). Tbh it was not mid-season but really towards the end of the season.
Change: ECL 1-10 Pro team 13th played best out of 7 against 16th.
Change: ECL 1-20 Teams 1-12 did not qualify, now 12th team were put in qualification
Change: Roster moves were allowed
Change: 3 months between regular season and relegation is not fair play.
Why do you think relegations are played shortly after regular season in real sport and not before the beginning of a new season with new rosters? The relegetion/promotion system is tied with a regular season for a reason. We might very well play against team-members in the qualification that were part of the team who put us in qualification in the first place. How can anyone think that is fair play? I challenge you to name one example in the history of sports when relegation/promotion has allowed roster moves.
SSK did not get a chance to prove themselves when the change is announced 1 week to go of regular season with 3 games left. 3 opponents hardly even equals the majority of teams you play.
5 minuter sedan, Mikka säger:So in my opinion the changes were not drastic enough that everyone should be losing their minds on when it was announced, yeah it would've been good to announce it before the season but it's not like it was after the season and the ones affected had zero ways to affect their situation. Everyone (well, except the 5 promoted lite teams) was given the chance to prove themselves, even the 15th & 16th that were originally announced to be relegated without qualifiers straight to Lite. Now if people disagree with the whole system, that's another topic that I've also given my comments on earlier.
The most drastic changes NG ever done to League structure, would't you agree?
After season (and after promotion/relegation) is fine. Then everybody played the tournament with the rules and and prerequisites at hand at the beginning.
Actually no...we have not been given a chance to prove ourselves with the team who went into qualification. With our team now I believe we wouldnt even be in qualification. So can we please get to play against all the pro teams from previous season again? (Im not serious, Im just making a point that no 12-16 teams in Pro has gotten the chance to prove themselves under the prerequisites that they were put here.
23 minuter sedan, Mikka säger:The bolded part and onwards, I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say, unless you're just making your stance clearer on how this should've gone in your opinion? The bolded parts in the final paragraph I'd ask to elaborate but I'm not sure I have the energy & willingness to keep on arguing here, but if you have the time then please do, I want to understand your viewpoint. The seeding I've also commented on earlier, I don't think either that it makes any sense to now suddenly rank Pro teams higher if it was decided before that they should be lower than Lite (unless the thought process is lite top8 > pro bottom 8 > rest of lite in which case I'll agree to disagree with NG on that & ask if these kind of thought processes behind changes could be communicated through the articles in the future).
About the schedule? Obviously the change has taken a lot of time. If they didnt make it now, ECL could play during spring as every other 2nd ECL since the start of ECL. No play during summer
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1 timme sedan, Mikka säger:
(2) I understand your point here about not changing things midway through a season, although I do disagree. Ideally yeah I'd like to have had all the info be released before the season start, but in my opinion that's not absolutely crucial if we at least know that something is going to be changed and at least vaguely what that something is. Here's a quote from an article titled The ECL 11 rulebook update is here!, posted November 19, 2020 (two days after Lite and a day after Neo had started, before Pro & Elite started):
You might disagree and I might have missed your point as to why you think changing format mid-season is a good thing, but I dont see it?
NG did announce there was gonna be a change to promotional system for ECL12. Thats not the same as postponing qualification 3 months and allowing roster moves, or new teams in qualification. Or that they will seed Lite teams (regardless of position) higher than Pro teams (except then they change it back again, so now Pro teams are seeded higher in the actual qualification....which makes no sense if you're supposed to use the same logic).
It creates a bunch of problems. Unfair competition being a major one. The othe major one is forcing teams who want to keep their spot to play during summer vacation. If they released the change after we would have fair competition and could all enjoy the beach for summer
NG would have 8-9 more months to figure out the best possible solution for a new league structure. Maybe collecting feedback from community etc.
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4 minuter sedan, Mikka säger:
I get how these changes seem drastic and so sudden to most people, but these things are not done over just a few days or weeks. Even from public sources (Kenu's chatbox messages) there was info that there's going to be some changes to the promotion system at least from season start. There was messages about "please hold on, we're trying to make it somewhat digestible", "next week", "soon". The promotion/relegation section in the rulebook was blacked out too and I think there was some kind of a notice about an announcement coming. And we all know how Kenu/NG informs us about things basically only when they're done, so this has been long coming. From what I've heard, NG has felt that there needs to be proper notice given before the season about a big reform like this so that people are not blindsided. That's obiviously not what happened here even if it was the plan and I do agree announcing this mid-season was NG shooting themselves in the foot, but as far as I'm aware this is exactly what NG wanted to avoid but for some reason just wasn't able to. Let's not think this whole reform was half-assedly assembled during a weekend at NG's beautiful sauna headquarters, they've put a lot of time into this.
I agree there's still work to be done to make these things more simpliefied and easy to understand, but judging from Kenu's chatbox messages trying to do that as good as possible is what got us into this mess (about the late announcement) in the end
That obiviously shouldn't happen but it did, even if it unintentionally, so I guess that's an opportunity for NG for further improvement.
I cant speak for others but I don't believe people think this was a hasty decision??? Quite the opposite considering the complexity of the format.
Their timing is completely off. Either you make the deadline before a tournament start or you postpone it until after the tournament. The complaint lies in changing the format for an ongoing tournament. No messege in a chatbox about potential future changes remedies that (chatbox is not an official channel for communication if Im correct?)
Im sure NHLGamer faces challenges I do not comprehend, but as any organisation in the world hosting tournaments, there will be challenges to overcome. It's not that we are complaining they didnt do something in time. if that was the case, then people could argue their work is overloaded. We are complaining they did something when they should have waited.
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2 timmar sedan, eliekamel87 säger:
This is just your (and a small group of people compared to how many players there is) opinion.
@FINSeRe@Pontinho 70 "likes" is compared to 7-8 teams out of 300, the rest I'm assuming accepts the new structure and move on with their life.
What i am trying to say is that we don't know if NG thinks this is a bad decision or not. We should respect them enough to give them time to analyze the feedback, discuss this and if necessary adjust next season. If you've ever been in a position where you have to make choices that affects thousands of people in a good or bad way, you know its not easy - at least they respect the feedback but they can't just change everything in a heartbeat cause a group of people think it's not 100% perfect.
Sure, 5 out of 300 teams got a "free ticket" and i understand that sucks for the ones that didn't or the ones who didn't or has to qualify but this is e-sport, stuff like this is not rare. They shouldn't change anything now so let us respect their decision, be thankful that we have NG and just play the d*mn game.
This is a never-ending discussion, at least until the season starts and everyone forgets about it.
Its not an opinion that the tournament is unfair. Its a fact. Changing prerequisites in an ongoing tournament makes it unfair. Again, please make an argument how allowing new teams to enter the qualification, or recruiting players between regular season and qualification makes for fair competition. Do you understand why there are trade deadlines in sport?
You are arguing that NG is working hard and listening to feedback, which is not arguing the point. No one is disputing that NG is working hard. Decisions are sometimes tough, but the decision to change the League structure is a fairly big decision to make. They just had to make it between seasons. It is really not that hard. And when you make a decision that creates unfair competition...you should correct it.
Im fine with us qualifying. I knew we had to qualify 10 games into ECL11. Really...Im not asking for free spot. What I would ask is to play the qualification close in time to regular season with the rosters who got there. This is not possible anymore. But at least, they can make every team who did not get a Pro spot qualify.
I do feel bad for SSK who got the notice 1 week and 3 games left of regular season that 12th position would put them in qualification, and then gets a lower seed than Lite teams who did not make the quarterfinals in Lite.
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3 timmar sedan, eliekamel87 säger:
I say no changes now and let NG figure this out in peace. I think people forget how much work they put in to make this work and i know they care about the feedback.
We know they work hard for little or no pay. We appreciate it and therefore so many have stayed since ECL1
Actually because of the hard work of @Kenu everyone at Consolehockey moved to NHLGamer in the first place.
But sometimes people make bad decisions, and in this case the timing issue is caused by their own actions. They decided to make the change mid-season. If they had just waited a few weeks, they would have until October/November to figure out the format for coming tournaments.
AND bonus: keep the ECL fair. Which means; not forcing teams to wait months and allowing teams to recruit players, or even allowing new teams who did not participate in ECL11 regular season to qualify.
Now they may argue that a change was needed because of the increase in players and teams. Fair enough. But ECL has increased with every season if I’m correct? This had to be foreseeable and expected. They just had to make the change in between seasons.I welcome anyone to argue ECL11 + qualification is a fair competition.
Don’t wait to fix this. Do it now.
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The seeding is wrong for the Pro-qualifier. Why is suddenly Pro-teams 12th-14th seeded higher than Lite Playoff team 10th????
Please explain why you consider 9 Lite teams to be better than the Pro-teams but not 10. You also state that the Lite-teams will replace the directly promoted teams. So it makes more sense if you seed them higher
Its wrong...but at least make it consistent.
Also if you belive free spots are wrong then make it right now, not after the tournament.
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Out of curiousity....as I understand it for ECL12-13 etc the top 4 core teams will get into qualifiers for Pro before some Lite teams who are not successful enough in playoffs. BUT if enough pro/elite teams disband then potentially a Lite team who is not eligible for Pro-qualifier can get the Pro spot before the pro-qualifier eligible core team. Its very unlikely, but theoretically possible, no? @NHLGamer
Im not sure but there is probably like a 100+ years or so of documented promotions/relegations in sport...why not have a look at how its done?
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Just nu, Bjono säger:
You have to qualify?🤔 why is that?
so you think you deserved the spot?
Actually it’s because we went to Lite finals and got promoted to Pro according to the rules set before the start of season 10, and it’s way more difficult being top 11 in your Pro group than reaching top 16 in Lite.
Im fine with qualifying. I’m not fine with all the changes to the regulations mid-season.
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14 minuter sedan, Bjono säger:
What is the different from previous seasons?
so if you play that ”good” that you end up in the qualification situation, and obvious didnt have any success in the division, you are the better team and should stay in the division??
maybe we should close the division aswell?
Really?
You dont see any difference from previous 10 season?
I wonder why that is...
Did you get a Pro spot without qualifying perhaps?
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Please explain why you change the rules again.
And can we trust the rules set for the qualifying-tournament or will these be changed again before ECL12?
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This feel like politics. It doesnt make sense but there are probably unknown factors at stake that I will never understand. Can NHLGamer at least provide a good explanation for wives/GFs when we cancel the summer vacation?
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We don't mind the predictions
Keep em coming!
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1 timme sedan, FlyerKungen säger:
One thing is fact for sure, LHC got awesome group of guys to work with. I've waited this day, well deserved!
Y'all need to chill and get your ass down.
I hope people are happy with SHL even investing to this at first place. Give them time to learn things, that's the part of the process, you usually learn from mistakes you do at season number one. And hey, we can't really talk or even hope SHL teams doing things with long term right from the start since the future for eSHL is kinda unknown, right? I see SHL teams have used kinda different and careful angles when creating a teams for eSHL, maybe they learn something from this, as I said.
If you close Swedish Leagues from Finnish People, or start blackmail people with new transfer rules (so they don't wanna move), then Finnish Leagues will be (need to be) closed from Swedish players aswell. I don't wanna see that, best for the NHLGamer would be that the everyone has possibility to participate. Some kind of roster limits for foreign players in both, Sweden and Finnish League would be easiest and maybe best solution, imo. I still wanna hug @ICappeI or maybe even @jtorro1233 in Finland after Finals and so on. And I still wanna have a chance to go play with awesome Swedes if some team gives me that opportunity! Heja AIK! Heja Malmö!
In FCL/eSM there is 99% sure a rule about Swedish orgs. not allowed to participate but it will be probably solved if LHC is FILA and Luleå is NOR, for example. Since you can do new team for those tourneys. My point is, at the moment all the SHL teams with few Finnish players are in good situation since they can participate to every tournament they want and use the same roster all the time. It's good for LHC/FILA at competitive wise and it's not their fault. I just want the game to be fair for everyone, what comes about that who is allowed to participate different tournaments and who is not and etc...
There is good talk going on and you can see people care about this, I really hope this thing will go on with a bang! And be even more bigger in future seasons. Just, don't bury it before it even started.
When organisations such as SHL take on projects like these it’s aim is long term.
It is impossible for anyone to predict the outcome but the aim of such an investment will always be long term. Why? Because there are no short-term benefits to be had.With that being said, do you think representing 2 esports-organisations at the same time helps the league to be viewed as serious for external sponsors etc?
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14 minuter sedan, Janikka säger:
Regardless of this debate, I feel like there is huge untapped potential in the Swedish pool of console hockey fans.
Agreed. NHL12 saw more thriving Swedish teams than NHL 20. I think that eSHL could have helped the community grow.
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7 minuter sedan, keranee säger:
Well I mean.. Wouldn’t any team, in any league, in any country, aim for the best players regardless of their ethnicity? I do understand your point but then again, what’s the actual problem? Correct me if I’m wrong but aren’t most of the SHL teams as of now still mainly 70%~ Swedish? Like, imagine a scenario where the ”real” hockey team based in Linköping (or anywhere else) had a chance to either roster a Swedish player whose not so talented - or a player of other ethnicity whos really talented to raise their chances of success? Idk, maybe I’m wrong.
The biggest problem is that it kills the hype for the league.
If audience etc want to just watch skilled players there is ECL etc. The hype is surrounding the opportunity to watch SHL teams battle on virtual ice. Imo the Swedish Community need to grow. We need new talent and the best way to do so is creating interest around the teams and league.
Why even bother with a swedish league if it’s just about having the best teams?-
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Linköping invented a new term; surrogate-team
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3 minutes ago, Lauri said:
Isn't this a choice for every swedish team to make? And since finnish are dominating adding "better" players to a tournament makes it more interesting, no?
Ofc the choice is up to each team.
I believe there are more factors than skill alone to contribute to a tournament’s value.
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10 hours ago, Kenu said:
16,67% of players could be Finnish and this ruins it for you?
It does not. Neither did I say it would.
10 hours ago, Kenu said:There is a bunch of pre-existing teams that have a mixed roster and by allowing a small quota of foreigners we want to prevent breaking up teams due to unnecessarily strict rules, as some teams would be restricted from playing in most leagues and tournaments in that case.
I was specifically talking about Finnish players. I’m not asking why @MartindalexC can play with NOR. Finland is such a dominating factor in this community that the effect of allowing Finnish players is much bigger alone than allowing all other nationalities combined.
I don’t see how this makes a Swedish championship more interesting? On the contrary I think it hurts Swedish teams in the long run. Last minute transfers are rarely a good way to build success imo
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Considering ECL is 90 % of finnish teams, one could question how it benefits the growth of the community to include finnish players in a swedish tournament? Maybe that is not NHLGamers goal? @Kenu
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7 hours ago, Tauri said:
When will we get our first lockout?
NHL15.
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"LA came to the conclusion that there will not be a ban for the player gzell60, nevertheless he was given a warning."
"Therefore we asked both teams to NOT perform any of the above mentioned actions for the remainder of this series. We also would like to point out that any further infraction of this rule will lead to a 1 game ban."
Care to explain the difference of the warning gzell received and the one given to both teams?
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I see Basse found a new pond to fish 🎣 😄
That obiviously shouldn't happen but it did, even if it unintentionally, so I guess that's an opportunity for NG for further improvement.
ECL '23 brings 1v1, bigger prizes and World Finals to the table - are you ready to ramp things up to the next level?
in ECL
Posted
It’s not the why but the how that’s criticised. SG should monetise, but not by taking money from its core user base. It’s not growth when you take that money from the community itself. SG has failed to acquire the right sponsorships if they feel the need to charge their members. You see, we are definitely the most important factor SG uses when trying to recruit sponsors.
So either SG is not doing a good enough job with sponsors, or the interest from outside investors for NHL as an e-sport is too low.
If they had the money the needed from sponsors, they would not ask for this type of money.