ECL 5 Poll: Should a new team be allowed to apply for ECL Pro?

[Aze]

 

1 hour ago, Peacerich_se said:

Its not a pro league, we do as we please with who deserve what and why, my point overall is that I dont see why the top team in Lite and Pro shoulnt be given a chance in the Elite Playoffs, how this should work we can all discuss but that is what I want and I cant possibly be the only one who think that its a good idea that before every season ALL teams can at least dream about it. Does it have to be the number 7 and 8 spot? Ofcourse not! Expand Elite to like 22 teams and give playoff spot 15 and 16 to Pro and Lite, have team 7-10 in Elite and the best team in Pro and Lite play short 6 team tournament where the top two teams get spot number 7 and 8. This can be done in a "million" ways. 

Laser HT was 7th in regular season of ecl4, and they still won whole shit. Its spirit of game. In your way pearichwhatever laser should have been replaced with lite or pro winner?

One of the greatest idea so far, keep it coming and make nhlgamer great again!

[Filariou]

1 hour ago, Peacerich_se said:

Yes, in a world where this works it would be, but something tells me that every single season for as long as NHLgamer has got this division system working like it works right now the best team (or maybe even a few teams) in Lite will be better then the worst teams in Elite. If the team winning the Lite Playoff then get a spot in the Elite Playoffs, I dont see what is wrong with that. They dont even have to get a spot, the can play Elite Team number 8 for the 8th spot.

If your point is that Lite champions should play in Elite playoffs you should compare them to teams who placed 7th and 8th in regular season of Elite, not to teams who were worst in Elite. For example last season 7th was Laset HT (champions) and 8th was Limitless (semifinalist).

[MartindalexC]

@Peacerich_se

In terms of skill I wouldn't rule out lower elite teams being close in skill to top pro teams, truth be told the skill discrepancy between the 'top of elite' and the lower end is pretty damn large as is anyway. That said however, the difference between any 'top' lite teams and any elite teams is so huge I would even venture to say the elite team could start 0-3 down and still win. As for the pro teams the skill gap is of course not as insane, but at the end of the day they're playing in pro to get promoted to elite, why should they have more access to elite playoffs then actual elite teams? 

You say that the best teams in lite (atleast a few) would be better than lower elite teams, sorry but that's just wrong. No offence to Hawks Hockey Club / Old Farts / Dynamo Danglers / Dead End Kings but I think even they could tell you that they wouldn't stand a chance in elite playoffs. Pro division, there's an argument to be had for sure, but it's still a little silly that a pro team could face lesser skilled opponents to make the playoffs than an actual elite team would. 

And sorry but if having to be in elite to win the cup annoys you then there's an easy remedy for that... get good enough to play in elite, it's pretty simple. 

Edited August 22, 2017 by MartindalexC

[iRSPe]

There are ~47 teams in Elite/Pro and 31 in Lite. I wonder what might be the voting result  

Spoiler

66% to YES

If we make fastlane to Pro it does not expand the community it just closes others.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Nahkatoteemi

[Peacerich_se]

26 minutes ago, Tuukka.R said:

Are you stupid or is this huge troll attempt ? Sorry to tell you this Lite is for beginners and Pro for good players. No way top elite teams could lose to these teams. Its ridiculous idea. Get some real info before these suggestions. If you fear lite teams more than elite teams I guess you havent played agaisnt them yet. There are ok teams in lite and pro but we have best teams in elite and in my opinion we dont have 16 real elite lvl teams in elite even now...

Question is who is trolling here. Yes, Lite is mainly for beginners, when have I ever said anything else? What I´ve said is that there are some teams in Lite that are as good as the worst teams in Elite. And yes, the absolute best (again 8ish)  top teams in this community probably wouldnt lose a playoff series against the best team in Lite but its not like that would win 10-0, 13-1, 8-0 and 10-1. I do not fear Lite teams more than Elite teams, jesus, try and read for a second will you? There are SOME teams in Pro AND Lite that i fear more than SOME of the teams in Elite. 

You dont have 16 elite teams in elite, no, which was exactly what i wrote before.

17 minutes ago, Aze said:

 

Laser HT was 7th in regular season of ecl4, and they still won whole shit. Its spirit of game. In your way pearichwhatever laser should have been replaced with lite or pro winner?

One of the greatest idea so far, keep it coming and make nhlgamer great again!

11 minutes ago, Filariou said:

If your point is that Lite champions should play in Elite playoffs you should compare them to teams who placed 7th and 8th in regular season of Elite, not to teams who were worst in Elite. For example last season 7th was Laset HT (champions) and 8th was Limitless (semifinalist).

Sure, its the spirit of the game, couldnt agree more, I love it! In my opinion the best team from Pro and the best team from Lite should be given the chance to participate in the Elite playoffs, how we should do this I dont know but I love to have a discussion about it and hear some ideas about how it in theory could play out. How people can be so against two wild card spots for Lite and Pro I dont understand, its not like im suggesting that the playoffs be played with the 6 best teams from elite, the 6 best teams from pro and the 4 best teams from lite  

 

5 minutes ago, MartindalexC said:

@Peacerich_se

In terms of skill I wouldn't rule out lower elite teams being close in skill to top pro teams, truth be told the skill discrepancy between the 'top of elite' and the lower end is pretty damn large as is anyway. That said however, the difference between any 'top' lite teams and any elite teams is so huge I would even venture to say the elite team could start 0-3 down and still win. As for the pro teams the skill gap is of course not as insane, but at the end of the day they're playing in pro to get promoted to elite, why should they have more access to elite playoffs then actual elite teams? 

You say that the best teams in lite (atleast a few) would be better than lower elite teams, sorry but that's just wrong. No offence to Hawks Hockey Club / Old Farts / Dynamo Danglers / Dead End Kings but I think even they could tell you that they wouldn't stand a chance in elite playoffs. Pro division, there's an argument to be had for sure, but it's still a little silly that a pro team could face lesser skilled opponents to make the playoffs than an actual elite team would. 

And sorry but if having to be in elite to win the cup annoys you then there's an easy remedy for that... get good enough to play in elite, it's pretty simple. 

I agree, they should have "more" access to the Elite Playoffs this is not a pro league, its a community where we like to compete. Again, im not suggestion a huge playoff with alot of teams from lite and pro being matched up with the elite playoff teams, just two spots, one for Pro and one for Lite.

No offence to them and you are right, they wouldnt win the Elite playoffs and I´ve never claimed that they would but they wouldnt get battered with 4-0 and a goal difference of 44-3, they would maybe lose 4-0 but thats a different story. The top team from Pro would have to face lesser skilled players overall, yes, but they would still have to win the whole thing which would mean that on the way they would have to beat opponents that are as good and in some cases even better than some of the teams from Elite, so they would still deserve it.

[KingOfApes_]

8 minutes ago, Peacerich_se said:

Question is who is trolling here. Yes, Lite is mainly for beginners, when have I ever said anything else? What I´ve said is that there are some teams in Lite that are as good as the worst teams in Elite. And yes, the absolute best (again 8ish)  top teams in this community probably wouldnt lose a playoff series against the best team in Lite but its not like that would win 10-0, 13-1, 8-0 and 10-1. I do not fear Lite teams more than Elite teams, jesus, try and read for a second will you? There are SOME teams in Pro AND Lite that i fear more than SOME of the teams in Elite. 

You dont have 16 elite teams in elite, no, which was exactly what i wrote before.

Sure, its the spirit of the game, couldnt agree more, I love it! In my opinion the best team from Pro and the best team from Lite should be given the chance to participate in the Elite playoffs, how we should do this I dont know but I love to have a discussion about it and hear some ideas about how it in theory could play out. How people can be so against two wild card spots for Lite and Pro I dont understand, its not like im suggesting that the playoffs be played with the 6 best teams from elite, the 6 best teams from pro and the 4 best teams from lite  

 

I agree, they should have "more" access to the Elite Playoffs this is not a pro league, its a community where we like to compete. Again, im not suggestion a huge playoff with alot of teams from lite and pro being matched up with the elite playoff teams, just two spots, one for Pro and one for Lite.

No offence to them and you are right, they wouldnt win the Elite playoffs and I´ve never claimed that they would but they wouldnt get battered with 4-0 and a goal difference of 44-3, they would maybe lose 4-0 but thats a different story. The top team from Pro would have to face lesser skilled players overall, yes, but they would still have to win the whole thing which would mean that on the way they would have to beat opponents that are as good and in some cases even better than some of the teams from Elite, so they would still deserve it.

Believe me series gonna be like u said. 10-1 7-0 etc. We saw it in ecl 3 when all teams were in same "division". Lite is lite for reason.. best lite team last season probably wont win pro this year. But pro winner will win elite next year.. 

[Peacerich_se]

3 minutes ago, Tuukka.R said:

Believe me series gonna be like u said. 10-1 7-0 etc. We saw it in ecl 3 when all teams were in same "division". Lite is lite for reason.. best lite team last season probably wont win pro this year. But pro winner will win elite next year.. 

Ok, interesting, look at your qoute below that you posted in my original "suggestion" less than two hours ago. If we would just go by that scenario (7th Elite spot to the winner of Pro and 8th spot to the winner of Lite) Synergy would have beaten Carlsberg with 10-1, 7-0 etc, I disagree.

2 hours ago, Tuukka.R said:

OMFG! Is this a joke right ? 

 

[MartindalexC]

14 minutes ago, Peacerich_se said:

...

I agree, they should have "more" access to the Elite Playoffs this is not a pro league, its a community where we like to compete. Again, im not suggestion a huge playoff with alot of teams from lite and pro being matched up with the elite playoff teams, just two spots, one for Pro and one for Lite.

No offence to them and you are right, they wouldnt win the Elite playoffs and I´ve never claimed that they would but they wouldnt get battered with 4-0 and a goal difference of 44-3, they would maybe lose 4-0 but thats a different story. The top team from Pro would have to face lesser skilled players overall, yes, but they would still have to win the whole thing which would mean that on the way they would have to beat opponents that are as good and in some cases even better than some of the teams from Elite, so they would still deserve it.

You misunderstand me, I wasn't advocating for pro teams to be able to play in the elite playoffs. Based on your example a pro team would make the playoffs over elite teams, despite it not being clear whether they're even better than the elite team(s) they're replacing, plus they'd have had a much easier path into the playoffs than said elite team(s). Sure this is a 'community' that likes to compete, but there's a difference between being irrational and logical. Elite is called elite for a reason, thusly the elite playoffs is quite literally, the 'elite of the elite', sure you have to actually get promoted to elite before being able to play but that's fine imo. 

Sure, I get it people want to be inclusive and make this a happy place league where "everyone can win" but come on now, pro teams making the playoffs in place of elite teams is lunacy. 

[MartindalexC]

37 minutes ago, Nahkatoteemi said:

There are ~47 teams in Elite/Pro and 31 in Lite. I wonder what might be the voting result  

  Reveal hidden contents

66% to YES

If we make fastlane to Pro it does not expand the community it just closes others.

Let's take a look at csgo.

Team that is top 30 in the world decides to join a new org and make a new team -> Event organisers realise they can't throw this new team in the lower divisions because it's a waste of time and will only serve to annoy people -> Ergo they place the new team in invite leagues and things above 'open'.

Translated, a new team would be able to play in Pro because they're clearly good enough to play in it. Lite should be there for brand spanking new teams that have new players that don't have a proven skill level. 

"Fastlane" for pro is only there for proven teams and players, not new ones. Plus lite is at the beginner level as others have wrote, such a league is neccessary and is prevalent across many games and e-sports, you want to complain about it, fine, but you can't argue that it'll 'close the community' as that's just plain wrong. 

[KingOfApes_]

7 minutes ago, Peacerich_se said:

Ok, interesting, look at your qoute below that you posted in my original "suggestion" less than two hours ago. If we would just go by that scenario (7th Elite spot to the winner of Pro and 8th spot to the winner of Lite) Synergy would have beaten Carlsberg with 10-1, 7-0 etc, I disagree.

 

Oh god... shame shame shame...

[Peacerich_se]

1 minute ago, MartindalexC said:

You misunderstand me, I wasn't advocating for pro teams to be able to play in the elite playoffs. Based on your example a pro team would make the playoffs over elite teams, despite it not being clear whether they're even better than the elite team(s) they're replacing, plus they'd have had a much easier path into the playoffs than said elite team(s). Sure this is a 'community' that likes to compete, but there's a difference between being irrational and logical. Elite is called elite for a reason, thusly the elite playoffs is quite literally, the 'elite of the elite', sure you have to actually get promoted to elite before being able to play but that's fine imo. 

Sure, I get it people want to be inclusive and make this a happy place league where "everyone can win" but come on now, pro teams making the playoffs in place of elite teams is lunacy. 

Yes, they would in my example but in my other example they wouldnt necessarily have to just steal that spot right off, they can play team 7 for it and the team from Lite could play team 8 for their spot, Unfortunately there cannot be 16 playoff teams in Elite when it only consists of 16 teams and with the promote/regulation system Elite would have to expand in order for this to work, therefor in my other example if Elite was expanded to like 22 teams or something it could be done with 14 teams from Elite and 1 each from Pro and Lite. You could also have a system where top 7 in Elite goes to the playoffs while the winner from Pro faces off against the winner from Lite and the winner in that matchup plays number 8 in Elite for the final 8th spot. Like I wrote before this can be done in a million ways but what I´ve wanted all along here is just to bring up the fact that I think it should be possible for all teams to win the cup, IN THEORY, if its every gonna happen is not interesting.

[iRSPe]

2 minutes ago, MartindalexC said:

Let's take a look at csgo.

Team that is top 30 in the world decides to join a new org and make a new team -> Event organisers realise they can't throw this new team in the lower divisions because it's a waste of time and will only serve to annoy people -> Ergo they place the new team in invite leagues and things above 'open'.

That's good point if we had some money involved. But u are talking about amateur league and I assume that NHLGamer is trying to make somekind of community here (before they make us pay to join leagues etc). If top players can just make new team in every season to fill open spots how it supose to serve anything?

I'm new here so I can see how small is the core who actually uses power here. They keep the administrators in their mouth. I don't want this to be "Happy place" I wanna just think bigger (Lite or Pro team in Elite playoffs ain't one of my sheet).
 

[MartindalexC]

3 minutes ago, Peacerich_se said:

Yes, they would in my example but in my other example they wouldnt necessarily have to just steal that spot right off, they can play team 7 for it and the team from Lite could play team 8 for their spot, Unfortunately there cannot be 16 playoff teams in Elite when it only consists of 16 teams and with the promote/regulation system Elite would have to expand in order for this to work, therefor in my other example if Elite was expanded to like 22 teams or something it could be done with 14 teams from Elite and 1 each from Pro and Lite. You could also have a system where top 7 in Elite goes to the playoffs while the winner from Pro faces off against the winner from Lite and the winner in that matchup plays number 8 in Elite for the final 8th spot. Like I wrote before this can be done in a million ways but what I´ve wanted all along here is just to bring up the fact that I think it should be possible for all teams to win the cup, IN THEORY, if its every gonna happen is not interesting.

You have to realise however that by increasing elite to 22 teams, all the actual 'good' teams from pro will be there instead of, well, pro. Thereby increasing the skill difference between playoff bound teams in elite and any respective team from pro. Plus you still aren't compensating for the fact that the pro (and lite) team had a much easier time getting to the playoffs than any of the elite teams did.

Look I get what you're trying to do but as I've said previously, making it so that teams below elite can make it to the 'real' playoffs is just insulting to elite teams that didn't make said playoffs, plus it's completely pointless because it's nulifying the whole point of a division system, to keep teams segregated until they've proven that they can hang with the group higher than them. 

Finally, I'm just gonna say that it shouldn't be possible during normal league play for every single team to be able to win the 'cup'. If however there was a once a year tournament where there was a proper seeding and round robin / swiss system and all that jazz then sure, but yea, as much as I would like that, it ain't happening because of this random ass division system. 

[iRSPe]

23 minutes ago, MartindalexC said:

"Fastlane" for pro is only there for proven teams and players, not new ones. Plus lite is at the beginner level as others have wrote, such a league is neccessary and is prevalent across many games and e-sports, you want to complain about it, fine, but you can't argue that it'll 'close the community' as that's just plain wrong. 

In my opinion last season there was only one team who played in too low division. Is there much more to come teams like Hc Carlsberg? If Lite is only for beginners we might need one division between pro and lite then? 

[KepakkoFIN]

Abdolutely NO!

NHLGamer says that this is competitive community. Well i ask would it be fairly competitive to every one if some team can skip a division? Yes the first season to the "better" team would be easy. No can do. But didn't everyone say also last season that Old Farts was plays in wrong division? Yeah they won the regular season but why didn't they advance to the Pro division for ECL 5 if they were in wrong division? I think that if NHLGamers staff let's now some team go this shortcut they dig a hole for them selfs. How do you say someones skill level is pro or elite? They have played 5 matches? 10? 30? Or how many players in team you must have in team to get this privilege? Is 4 enought or do you lose it if you have even one "Lite level" player?

And how can we prevent that Lite team decides to skip ECL 5 and make comeback to ECL 6 but this time they have 6 elite players and 4 lite players? After staff gives them the shortcut the elite players return to their teams and Lite players invites their old players back to the team? And voila they are in Pro division.

In Lite there are some teams that really would be Pro's mid - lower mid teams. It would be unfair to them (and all the other Lite teams as well) if some teams just can skip one division.

Let's keep the game equally fair to everyone!

[MartindalexC]

7 minutes ago, Nahkatoteemi said:

That's good point if we had some money involved. But u are talking about amateur league and I assume that NHLGamer is trying to make somekind of community here (before they make us pay to join leagues etc). If top players can just make new team in every season to fill open spots how it supose to serve anything?

I'm new here so I can see how small is the core who actually uses power here. They keep the administrators in their mouth. I don't want this to be "Happy place" I wanna just think bigger (Lite or Pro team in Elite playoffs ain't one of my sheet).
 

What? No, that's not related to this in anyway in regards to the money involvement. The players would lose their spot in the top division though? I don't see your point since they'd be relegated into pro, so then one team from pro would be promoted. 

Again, what? I will say it certainly feels like there's a mentality of 'yes-men' here but I've said that before. I don't think people are 'bullying' admins or anything like that if I read your message correctly.

[Peacerich_se]

1 minute ago, MartindalexC said:

You have to realise however that by increasing elite to 22 teams, all the actual 'good' teams from pro will be there instead of, well, pro. Thereby increasing the skill difference between playoff bound teams in elite and any respective team from pro. Plus you still aren't compensating for the fact that the pro (and lite) team had a much easier time getting to the playoffs than any of the elite teams did.

Look I get what you're trying to do but as I've said previously, making it so that teams below elite can make it to the 'real' playoffs is just insulting to elite teams that didn't make said playoffs, plus it's completely pointless because it's nulifying the whole point of a division system, to keep teams segregated until they've proven that they can hang with the group higher than them. 

Finally, I'm just gonna say that it shouldn't be possible during normal league play for every single team to be able to win the 'cup'. If however there was a once a year tournament where there was a proper seeding and round robin / swiss system and all that jazz then sure, but yea, as much as I would like that, it ain't happening because of this random ass division system. 

Yes, but again, im just brainstorming like I said earlier in the thread, 10,14, 16, 22, 30 teams, whatever. Like we´ve agreed on earlier Elite is, based on skill to big already, it wouldnt be any different if more teams where added there would still be a top 8ish that would be in 6th gear going full throttle so it really doesnt matter if its 8 or 14 teams that are just about to get into 5th gear. Its about thinking outside the box and not get stuck in this pro thinking that we are some sort of pro organization that has got big sponsors, hundreds of players that has got this for a full time job and tens of thousands of "fans" following the games on twitch. My idea with teams from Lite and Pro being able to get a spot or two in the Elite playoffs would have been insane if it was a pro organization, but now it isnt, its a community and its not like i think that this system is killing the community in any way, shape or form I just cant understand why people seem to be so against giving all teams that participate, regardless of division, at least in theory a chance win and it probably wouldnt happen and it would just be on behaf of one single team from Elite if so.

As far as pro goes they would already have proven that they could hang with a group higher because they just got promoted, as for Lite its a different story ofcourse but like I said before, let them play the winners from Pro and the 8th team in Elite for that spot or give them the 8th spot in the Pro playoffs, make it however you want all Im saying is that it should be possible. 

[iRSPe]

2 minutes ago, MartindalexC said:

don't see your point since they'd be relegated into pro, so then one team from pro would be promoted.

You relegate new team from nowhere to Pro? wtf? In this case new team just pops out somewhere and tooks place front of best Lite teams nose example...   The rules are a very flexible concept in here. Now you are just making one rule more what you can't hold.

8 minutes ago, MartindalexC said:

The players would lose their spot in the top division though?

As you can see. Small core. I rest my case.

[MartindalexC]

26 minutes ago, Nahkatoteemi said:

You relegate new team from nowhere to Pro? wtf? In this case new team just pops out somewhere and tooks place front of best Lite teams nose example...   The rules are a very flexible concept in here. Now you are just making one rule more what you can't hold.

As you can see. Small core. I rest my case.

No, if an elite team disbands and reforms they would be placed in pro. And yes they should be, since they are better than the best lite teams, sorry but it's true. If the lite team got promotion, they would get promoted, if not, then you can't complain that an ex-elite team takes a vacancy NOT filled by regular promotion.

Small core? Dude I have no idea what you're trying to get at? Since the context of my post was that they'd lose their place in the top division by reforming, something that is in the rules right now anyway and won't be affected by the proposed rule change.

Edited August 22, 2017 by MartindalexC

[tbnantti]

Yes, kind of like the winner of the Mestis and Suomi-sarja join the Liiga playoffs. 

[Jesus]

I think there is a point of expanding Elite division tho. Between 18-22 teams is a good amount. A larger elite division will put most of the focus on the Elite division in the community which is something that we want. A team should not gain as much hype for winning pro as of winning Elite. It will also be easier for good players to get into Elite, and not having them play in pro or lite due to limited rosters in Elite.

This elite thinking that every game must be like a playoff final in terms of skill is kind of overrated. Most leagues have 5-6 elite teams in the highest division, 10 good and 5 bad teams. It builds hype for the truly big games between the top teams and also from time to time gives upsets when a lesser team beats one of the giants. Also fun when a lesser team (think Leicester) upsets the community and finish high in the standing. As it is right now, it doesn't matter if you finish high or low in the group stage making the group stage completely pointless , which is something Laser HT proved last year.

To me there is a larger charm in this format. It gives the division character, something that the current Elite division lacks. It's not interesting tbh.

 

Edited August 22, 2017 by Jesus

[Mikka]

8 hours ago, koojiikoojii said:

 

"FA Cup" would be really cool, also agree on the part before the suggestions

[TerrorsenkoI91I]

14 minutes ago, Ebinmikka31 said:

"FA Cup" would be really cool, also agree on the part before the suggestions

👍👍🥅🏒🎮

[iRSPe]

49 minutes ago, MartindalexC said:

No, if an elite team disbands and reforms they would be placed in pro. And yes they should be, since they are better than the best lite teams, sorry but it's true.

Seems that you already know what team we are talking about so we are forcing this rule trough because of THEM? If it's so easy THEY can prove theirselves against best ranked Lite team in best-of-7 serie. I think this is best and fairest proposal so far.

[Lamsa]

🍿