ECL 12 Qualifiers Info

Is this a joke? 

If this

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Perhaps for next season all (except for auto-promoted) spots should be given out through the qualifiers rather than moving teams before them(?).

means preventing this:

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Based on that logic, to fill the available spots after sign-ups, the following ECL 11 Lite teams have gained direct promotion to ECL 12 Pro:

• Grenoble BDL Esport 
• Sjukstugan
• BoxinElite
• Sinister
• PENTA (previously ECDC Memmingen eSports)

then yeah, I agree 10000%. (For example) Pro Group 1 12th place team SSK was 4 points from a playoff spot, and they are going to have to go through qualifiers when PENTA (highest seed eliminated in Lite top16 so 9th I guess) gets to go straight to Pro. I kinda like the idea that even the 12th place team in Pro has to qualify, but imo in the case of extra spots you should just allocate those to the qualifiers so that the best teams play in Pro. Those five that now got instant promotion might just be the top5 teams in the qualifiers and be top5 in Pro next year, hell do I know, but imo they shouldn't take a priority over teams that weren't too far off from Pro playoffs. --> just let everyone prove themselves in the qualifiers, that's the primary idea behind this new system isn't it? If there's extra spots, then great, more (qualifier) teams have the chance to get promoted!

Edited April 11, 2021 by Mikka

Wow, just wow. Imo, you already messed up with the announcement of the qualifiers and the timing of the tournament etc., but this is on a whole other level. So how does promoting the next available Lite-team make the qualifiers a fair deal?

Just as I mentioned in my Post regarding the first Change of the whole Promotion & Relegation System in December/January during the Season. This Stuff is once again next level and makes everything even worse and more unfair. GG WP.

Where is the logic the post is all about? I dont get it....

Why on earth teams that should be in the Lite qualifiers get a direct Lite spot???? Why not just fill the rest of the free Lite spots based on last ECL's success then? FFS

@NHLGamer

Please explain why you change the rules again.

And can we trust the rules set for the qualifying-tournament or will these be changed again before ECL12?

1.4?

Farssi

Edited April 12, 2021 by Oicteppotulppu

 

WTF did I just read?? 🤣

You fucked up. 

Can I make a support req about this?

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by iSvamp

11 hours ago, Mikka said:

Pro Group 1 12th place team SSK was 4 points from a playoff spot, and they are going to have to go through qualifiers when PENTA (highest seed eliminated in Lite top16 so 9th I guess) gets to go straight to Pro.

I love that someone pointed this discrepancy out. As if being top-16 in Lite is somehow better than already competing Pro... 🙃

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Perhaps for next season all (except for auto-promoted) spots should be given out through the qualifiers rather than moving teams before them(?).

I also love that they're asking this after already making the decision for the upcoming tournament.

What is the different from previous seasons? 

so if you play that ”good” that you end up in the qualification situation, and obvious didnt have any success in the division, you are the better team and should stay in the division?? 

maybe we should close the division aswell? 

 

14 minuter sedan, Bjono säger:

What is the different from previous seasons? 

so if you play that ”good” that you end up in the qualification situation, and obvious didnt have any success in the division, you are the better team and should stay in the division?? 

maybe we should close the division aswell? 

 

Really?

You dont see any difference from previous 10 season? 

I wonder why that is...

Did you get a Pro spot without qualifying perhaps?

 

16 minuter sedan, J-Foppa säger:

Really?

You dont see any difference from previous 10 season? 

I wonder why that is...

Did you get a Pro spot without qualifying perhaps?

 

You have to qualify?🤔 why is that? 
 

so you think you deserved the spot? 

 

34 minuter sedan, Bjono säger:

What is the different from previous seasons? 

so if you play that ”good” that you end up in the qualification situation, and obvious didnt have any success in the division, you are the better team and should stay in the division?? 

maybe we should close the division aswell? 

 

Södertälje SK: 4 points away from the PRO Playoffs = Qualifications

Your team: 10 wins away from winning the ECL LITE (TEN) = Free spot in PRO.

----

Ofc we're "happy" for you, but this is so wrong.

It's not your fault tho, it's gamers.  

Just nu, Bjono säger:

You have to qualify?🤔 why is that? 
 

so you think you deserved the spot? 

 

Actually it’s because we went to Lite finals and got promoted to Pro according to the rules set before the start of season 10, and it’s way more difficult being top 11 in your Pro group than reaching top 16 in Lite. 
 

Im fine with qualifying. I’m not fine with all the changes to the regulations mid-season. 

Touché Forsberg! 

And to the rest: God bless all the free riders! 

12 timmar sedan, J-Foppa säger:

@NHLGamer

Please explain why you change the rules again.

And can we trust the rules set for the qualifying-tournament or will these be changed again before ECL12?

This is spot on and actually shows that there is two contradicted rules simultaneously.

I only have two ECL seasons of experience so my opinion maybe isn't the most interesting but I really feel that there is some unfairness of how things were decided.

It feels unfair that Pro teams 12th-16th have to qualify while these 5 Lite teams get promoted directly without being challeneged at all.

I also think that, deep inside somewhere, everyone knows that there probably is a skill difference between Lite 9th vs Pro 12th. 

We understand if the timeline as per now is too short but there are some options still and there is still time for some changes that would result in more fairness with less frustration and dissatisfaction.

A. Add these Lite teams to the Qualifier and put them to a fair test. A 25 team Qualifier would take maybe 1 week extra than planned. This would mean 12 spots to Pro out of the 25 team Qualifier.

B. If 25 team Qualifier is to big and take too long time. Let the highest Pro seeded teams from the Qualifiers get those open Pro spots and replace them in the Qualifiers with the 5 Lite teams. This would feel more fair and you'd have time until next ECL to overhaul these Qualifer rules and it's flow.

Edited April 12, 2021 by MaciPapi

f there happens to be more open spots than anticipated (e.g. from teams disbanding which would have been invited to play in the qualifier, or owned a spot to the division in question), we will award the next highest ranked playoff team each spot, whilst the next highest ranked potential qualifier eligible team will replace them in the qualifier. This procedure will be carried out for each and every extra unforeseen spot.

When was this written? Right or wrong. 

@Bjono

To answer your question.

The rules you quote are in this article from 29 Dec 2020 (updated 17 Mar 2021): https://nhlgamer.com/community/news/european-championship-league/new-division-and-promotion-structure-updated-170321-r775/#

 

And there is information in a later article from 24 Mar 2021 that contradicts but imo would be more fair:

https://nhlgamer.com/community/news/european-championship-league/the-ecl-is-now-bigger-than-ever-sign-up-for-ecl-12-now-r809/

So maybe it's a question of interpretation or maybe it's just a mistake or I don't 🤷‍♂️

 

What about the wildcards then? Have a club for a week and play the same qualification as 12th seed in PRO. 
is that unfair? 
 

promote the teams that do a good season instead of holding on to the ones who didnt made it. Its just the open spots. And then we still have the qualification.

1 hour ago, MaciPapi said:

B. If 25 team Qualifier is to big and take too long time. Let the highest seeded teams from the Qualifiers get those open Pro spots and replace them in the Qualifiers with the 5 Lite teams. This would feel more fair and you'd have time until next ECL to overhaul these Qualifer rules and it's flow.

With how the qualifiers have been seeded, those 5 teams would be the top 5 seeded teams in the qualifiers

From the original structure update article:

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1. Lite playoff team (4th)
2. Lite playoff team (5th)
3. Lite playoff team (6th)
4. Lite playoff team (7th)
5. Lite playoff team (8th)
6. Lite playoff team (9th)
7. Pro relegation team (12th)
8. Pro relegation team (12th)
9. Pro relegation team (13th)
10. Pro relegation team (13th)
11. Pro relegation team (14th)
12. Pro relegation team (14th)
13. Pro relegation team (15th)
14. Pro relegation team (15th)
15. Pro relegation team (16th)
16. Pro relegation team (16th)
17. Wildcard
18. Wildcard
19. Wildcard
20. Wildcard

 

Lite teams being higher seeded than the Pro teams also means that at least I, personally, would in the "real" qualifier format prefer to be the 13th rank in Pro instead of 12th. "Why is that?", you may ask. Well, in the format that's going to be in use starting next season, the only difference to the seedings I posted above is that Pro bottom4 will be directly replaced with top4 of core. --> the 12th and 14th placed Pro teams will be in the same group with each other, meanwhile the 13th place teams will be the lone Pro teams in their groups, as seen below.

I haven't had enough sleep to think about how this could be solved or even if I'm the only one thinking like this, but I'll just drop this here. I thought I commented about this on the original article but it appears I didn't, so sorry for the late feedback

 

Also I don't personally get the complaints about how this was announced mid-season, I mean I'd like to think that everyone wants to achieve the highest finish possible no matter what, so I don't see how an earlier heads-up would've solved anything. I do understand that the teams affected might feel upset about getting this unpleasant surprise so late, but be honest if you would've finished higher due to the fear of a relegation battle instead of the hunger to get into the playoffs, you're doing something wrong.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Mikka

So that should be all then.

Kiitos @Mikka

I just edited my comment by adding the word "Pro" in one of the sentences now. I just supposed that the Pro teams where higher seeded, so I wasn't accurate enough, my bad, and good point ✌

1 hour ago, Bjono said:

What about the wildcards then? Have a club for a week and play the same qualification as 12th seed in PRO. 
is that unfair? 
 

promote the teams that do a good season instead of holding on to the ones who didnt made it. Its just the open spots. And then we still have the qualification.

As far as I see, this whole qualifier-thing was created to ensure that the divisions are as tight and competitive as possible, as in so that the best eligible teams will get into Pro((&Lite)). Blindly promoting the best Lite playoff teams from the previous season doesn't in my opinion only cancel out the good elements this system has brought, but actually outweights them and makes this worse than the one we had before. If a team belongs in Pro, they can surely get a top 7 placement in a qualifier consisting of bottom Pro, almost-top Lite (& top Core) and these week old new teams, no? Getting to top 8 in Lite isn't imo enough proof that a team is better than a 12th ranked Pro team. They could be though, and that's why there's these qualifiers where they can prove themselves, isn't that just great I get it you're happy you got a free ride through the quals cuz rules are rules n shit but I'd maybe let the next season do the talking if I were in your position, gz & gl, see you in Pro.

 

50 minutes ago, MaciPapi said:

Kiitos @Mikka

I just edited my comment by adding the word "Pro" in one of the sentences now. I just supposed that the Pro teams where higher seeded, so I wasn't accurate enough, my bad, and good point ✌

Np, although I don't agree with you on this (my comment from yesterday, just let them battle it out imo)

Also I'm not sure anything can be done about ECL 12 anymore, just giving improvement suggestions for the future at this point

Edited April 12, 2021 by Mikka

3 tuntia sitten, MaciPapi kirjoitti:

B. If 25 team Qualifier is to big and take too long time. Let the highest Pro seeded teams from the Qualifiers get those open Pro spots and replace them in the Qualifiers with the 5 Lite teams. This would feel more fair and you'd have time until next ECL to overhaul these Qualifer rules and it's flow.

I am sorry, but what is the logic here?  

Personally ive played in lite, pro and elite. I dont see much of a skill difference between top 8 lite and most of the pro teams (maybe not top 4-8). At least before. Maybe its different now and I am completely wrong, who knows..
I see that the biggest skill difference is pro -> elite. 

Anyway.. How are these ideas fair for the ”old” teams, who played very long seasons just to play in the same qualify with a team that is maybe 1-4 weeks old (Wildcard)? Why would any team "deserve" a free spot?

On a personal level I also see it a bit odd, that the captain is enough to ”own” the team and its enough to keep the team spot. Just kick the whole team and get new players in after a ”bad” season? I dont think that is the key for a good success in a long run. 
 

Overall I find the new system is a good idea and its main idea, which is getting rid of these free spots.
 

Unfortunately this isnt anything new and this has happened before every new ecl season.  This is why need these new ideas and systems. 

However at the moment the ”new system” is maybe a bit too confusing and hard to understand.

Or maybe im just dumb😬..

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by imosi

@Mikka i really cant see that those other 4 teams (maybe we are) worse than the bottom PRO teams so i wouldn´t be to worried about the quality tbh. 

Also dont forget things like the differens of recruiting players as a lite team compared to PRO teams.. And if an open spot appeared i would easily vote for the top 4/128 teams in the lite season to get it. They are not worse and deserve a promotion imo.

If the quality are that high in the bottom of pro they will make the qualification easy so no harm done. But it cant be to impossible to get a promotion and it also cant be that harsh to have to play a qualification in you are on that spot after a whole season. 

I can definitely understand and appreciate the passionate response regarding the subject. That being said, I have to make it clear that any personal attacks on staff members will not be tolerated. This applies to this topic and all topics. We are happy to receive your feedback and discuss the subject, but going after staff members individually is not ok. We are all passionate about what we are doing here and while our opinions may not always align, it doesn’t mean that we don’t want the same end result.

At the end of the day it comes down to the fact that we announced how this would work on the 30th of December and at this point are honouring what we described the procedure would be. We received some feedback and criticism at that point and made some immediate adjustments to some valid points that were brought up. One of these points of feedback was not how the teams would be promoted in the case of unforseen spots in the divisions. As a reminder, here’s how it was outlined in the New Division and Promotion Structure article:

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If there happens to be more open spots than anticipated (e.g. from teams disbanding which would have been invited to play in the qualifier, or owned a spot to the division in question), we will award the next highest ranked playoff team each spot, whilst the next highest ranked potential qualifier eligible team will replace them in the qualifier. This procedure will be carried out for each and every extra unforeseen spot.

In this case, there were as many as five (5) unforeseen spots in Pro and we filled them as previously announced. Is it the right approach? Depends who you ask, and we’re open for feedback on this - preferably also from teams that are not in any way involved in this procedure currently, so we can get a broader view on the subject.

Either way, we do not believe it would be right to change the rules for this a few days before the qualifiers. So while the question about whether or not this was the right approach to begin with may be legitimate, we have stuck to the original plan and not undermined anyone’s chances.

As for the screenshot of the registration news story - valid feedback, this notion lacks specification on our part. It is referring to the spots that are available by default as per plan - seven (7) for Pro and does not take into account spots opened due to other circumstances such as teams disbanding. We apologise for the obvious lack of specification.

I hope we can keep this discussion productive and develop the structure in a way where we can all agree on the amendments to make to the qualifications for season 13.

Does everyone agree that in the future (from season 13), every free spot - both default and unforeseen - should be made be available through the qualifiers? For clarity, I am not referring to the instant promotion spots that are available through finishing top 3 in Lite etc.

Thanks for all the constructive feedback, for example by @Mikka. I will address some of them in a separate message.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Kenu
Added clarification about season 13

Lainaa

Does everyone agree that in the future, every free spot - both default and unforeseen - should be made be available through the qualifiers? For clarity, I am not referring to the instant promotion spots that are available through finishing top 3 in Lite etc.

Yes.