ECL 12 Qualifiers Info

15 minuter sedan, iSvamp säger:

Just remove them. 

20 teams, more spots. The best teams will get the spots in PRO. Easy. 

These teams were not meant to be there from the first place. 

Or just keep them, 20 or 25 teams doesnt really matter. It's just 2 more gamedays. 

Well, they changed lots of stuff. 

They also changed that number 15 and 16 in Pro would get an extra chance. Maybe they should change that back as well because those teams "were not meant to be there in the first place".

1 minut sedan, Kallmanius säger:

Well, they changed lots of stuff. 

They also changed that number 15 and 16 in Pro would get an extra chance. Maybe they should change that back as well because those teams "were not meant to be there in the first place".

If that is your best argument! Sure! 

Good luck without tacterz 😘

21 hours ago, Kenu said:

Thanks for this @Mikka.

For clarity, the below discussion concerns ECL 13 - not the upcoming season.

Also, the below are my own interpretations that have not been verified and represent only my personal thoughts.

My interpretation of the groups would be as follows, with the 12th Pro teams being the ones not to have other Pro teams in the groups.

Thus the 13th placed team would indeed face another Pro-team, right? Or am I misinterpreting you?

The hypothetical groups you had in a quote are correct using the adjusted seedings being used for ECL 12 qualifiers, but in the original article Pro teams are seeded below the Lite teams and above Core. So I can only assume that the current, adjusted seedings (which I tbh didn't notice b4 ) are only temporary and due to the process of promoting these 5 Lite teams. From the original reform article:

Quote

The twenty teams will be split into four groups of five based on the following seeding:

1. Lite playoff team (4th)
2. Lite playoff team (5th)
3. Lite playoff team (6th)
4. Lite playoff team (7th)
5. Lite playoff team (8th)
6. Lite playoff team (9th)
7. Pro relegation team (12th)
8. Pro relegation team (12th)
9. Pro relegation team (13th)
10. Pro relegation team (13th)
11. Pro relegation team (14th)
12. Pro relegation team (14th)
13. Core playoff team (1st)
14. Core playoff team (2nd)
15. Core playoff team (3rd)
16. Core playoff team (4th)
17. Wildcard
18. Wildcard
19. Wildcard
20. Wildcard

So I'd assume this is the system that's going to be used starting from next season with the Core teams coming in and everything. With these seedings, the groups would look like:

Quote

ECL 13 hypothetical Pro Qualifier groups based on current structure:

Group 1

#1 Lite 4th

#8 Pro 12th

#12 Pro 14th

#16 Core 4th

#20 WILDCARD

Group 2

#2 Lite 5th

#7 Pro 12th

#11 Pro 14th

#15 Core 3rd

#19 WILDCARD

Group 3

#3 Lite 6th

#6 Lite 9th

#10 Pro 13th

#14 Core 2nd

#18 WILDCARD

Group 4

#4 Lite 7th

#5 Lite 8th

#9 Pro 13th

#13 Core 1st

#17 WILDCARD

Just my personal opinion but Group 3 & 4 are the ones I'd want to be in. The groups you posted looked good, so maybe just seeding Pro above Lite would solve the problem.

 

 

 

5 hours ago, eliekamel87 said:

This is just your (and a small group of people compared to how many players there is) opinion. 

@FINSeRe@Pontinho 70 "likes" is compared to 7-8 teams out of 300, the rest I'm assuming accepts the new structure and move on with their life.

 

What i am trying to say is that we don't know if NG thinks this is a bad decision or not. We should respect them enough to give them time to analyze the feedback, discuss this and if necessary adjust next season. If you've ever been in a position where you have to make choices that affects thousands of people in a good or bad way, you know its not easy - at least they respect the feedback but they can't just change everything in a heartbeat cause a group of people think it's not 100% perfect. 

Sure, 5 out of 300 teams got a "free ticket" and i understand that sucks for the ones that didn't or the ones who didn't or has to qualify but this is e-sport, stuff like this is not rare. They shouldn't change anything now so let us respect their decision, be thankful that we have NG and just play the d*mn game.

 

This is a never-ending discussion, at least until the season starts and everyone forgets about it.

 

 

I agree with the bolded part, think it's a bit too late for immediate changes. As for the non-bolded part though: My only association to anything regarding the qualifiers is playing like one tourney/league with like one guy in a few of the teams, but as far as I'm aware there is not a single player in the qualifiers that I keep in touch with regularly. Looking at the people who've liked my first comment, I see a lot of people that don't have their horses in the race either. I also don't see more than a few players per team in there, so I'd say that there's representation from a pretty wide spectrum of teams. Most of the comments here are from people that are directly affected, but hitting a like on a comment is a lot easier to do than spending hours on writing about things that don't even affect oneself (yea it's me I'm the oneself hello).

 

 

 

11 hours ago, J-Foppa said:

We know they work hard for little or no pay. We appreciate it and therefore so many have stayed since ECL1  Actually because of the hard work of @Kenu everyone at Consolehockey moved to NHLGamer in the first place. 

But sometimes people make bad decisions, and in this case the timing issue is caused by their own actions. They decided to make the change mid-season. If they had just waited a few weeks, they would have until October/November to figure out the format for coming tournaments. 
AND bonus: keep the ECL fair. Which means; not forcing teams to wait months and allowing teams to recruit players, or even allowing new teams who did not participate in ECL11 regular season to qualify. 

Now they may argue that a change was needed because of the increase in players and teams. Fair enough. But ECL has increased with every season if I’m correct? This had to be foreseeable and expected. They just had to make the change in between seasons.

I welcome anyone to argue ECL11 + qualification is a fair competition. 

Don’t wait to fix this. Do it now.

I get how these changes seem drastic and so sudden to most people, but these things are not done over just a few days or weeks. Even from public sources (Kenu's chatbox messages) there was info that there's going to be some changes to the promotion system at least from season start. There was messages about "please hold on, we're trying to make it somewhat digestible", "next week", "soon". The promotion/relegation section in the rulebook was blacked out too and I think there was some kind of a notice about an announcement coming. And we all know how Kenu/NG informs us about things basically only when they're done, so this has been long coming. From what I've heard, NG has felt that there needs to be proper notice given before the season about a big reform like this so that people are not blindsided. That's obiviously not what happened here even if it was the plan and I do agree announcing this mid-season was NG shooting themselves in the foot, but as far as I'm aware this is exactly what NG wanted to avoid but for some reason just wasn't able to. Let's not think this whole reform was half-assedly assembled during a weekend at NG's beautiful sauna headquarters, they've put a lot of time into this.

2 hours ago, Janikka said:

It must be very challenging to reconcile all these various factors that go into decisions like these when you're transitioning from a four-tier system into a five-tier one. That said, I think there is a lesson for the staff (who I understand to be dedicated, passionate, and working hard to give us all the best ECL experience possible) to be learned from these announcements. They have been well-written so I'm not criticizing that, but they have included so much to take in that it can get confusing. The puzzle is so large that putting it together without missing any pieces can be difficult. The staff obviously knows all that stuff before the announcements, and presenting it in an easily digestible manner to the rest of us is something that I feel could be improved.

It is tricky for sure, but I think a potential approach would be to prioritize the most pertinent information, perhaps even making separate announcements published some time apart, and to more strongly differentiate the various bits of information via logical categorization. This would help people build a coherent overview of the changes in their minds. Realistically, long detailed explanations will not engage most people's steadfast attention. This leads to some of the evident confusion and misunderstanding where some things come as a surprise to some people despite having already been presented.

After all that I will add that my message mainly concerns the vast announcement during ECL 11 as this new one on its own is quite effective.

I agree there's still work to be done to make these things more simpliefied and easy to understand, but judging from Kenu's chatbox messages trying to do that as good as possible is what got us into this mess (about the late announcement) in the end That obiviously shouldn't happen but it did, even if it unintentionally, so I guess that's an opportunity for NG for further improvement.

4 minuter sedan, Mikka säger:

I get how these changes seem drastic and so sudden to most people, but these things are not done over just a few days or weeks. Even from public sources (Kenu's chatbox messages) there was info that there's going to be some changes to the promotion system at least from season start. There was messages about "please hold on, we're trying to make it somewhat digestible", "next week", "soon". The promotion/relegation section in the rulebook was blacked out too and I think there was some kind of a notice about an announcement coming. And we all know how Kenu/NG informs us about things basically only when they're done, so this has been long coming. From what I've heard, NG has felt that there needs to be proper notice given before the season about a big reform like this so that people are not blindsided. That's obiviously not what happened here even if it was the plan and I do agree announcing this mid-season was NG shooting themselves in the foot, but as far as I'm aware this is exactly what NG wanted to avoid but for some reason just wasn't able to. Let's not think this whole reform was half-assedly assembled during a weekend at NG's beautiful sauna headquarters, they've put a lot of time into this.

I agree there's still work to be done to make these things more simpliefied and easy to understand, but judging from Kenu's chatbox messages trying to do that as good as possible is what got us into this mess (about the late announcement) in the end That obiviously shouldn't happen but it did, even if it unintentionally, so I guess that's an opportunity for NG for further improvement.

I cant speak for others but I don't believe people think this was a hasty decision??? Quite the opposite considering the complexity of the format. 

Their timing is completely off. Either you make the deadline before a tournament start or you postpone it until after the tournament. The complaint lies in changing the format for an ongoing tournament. No messege in a chatbox about potential future changes remedies that (chatbox is not an official channel for communication if Im correct?)

Im sure NHLGamer faces challenges I do not comprehend, but as any organisation in the world hosting tournaments, there will be challenges to overcome. It's not that we are complaining they didnt do something in time. if that was the case, then people could argue their work is overloaded. We are complaining they did something when they should have waited. 

1 hour ago, J-Foppa said:

(1) I cant speak for others but I don't believe people think this was a hasty decision??? Quite the opposite considering the complexity of the format. 

(2) Their timing is completely off. Either you make the deadline before a tournament start or you postpone it until after the tournament. The complaint lies in changing the format for an ongoing tournament. No messege in a chatbox about potential future changes remedies that (chatbox is not an official channel for communication if Im correct?)

Im sure NHLGamer faces challenges I do not comprehend, but as any organisation in the world hosting tournaments, there will be challenges to overcome. It's not that we are complaining they didnt do something in time. if that was the case, then people could argue their work is overloaded. We are complaining they did something when they should have waited. 

(1) Oh well then I misintrepreted you so sorry about that, that's just the feeling I got from the first part I bolded in your comment that I quoted. My comment wasn't supposed to be as directed to you as it seems like, just wanted it to be stated aloud that they put a lot of time into this no matter what it looks like.

(2) I understand your point here about not changing things midway through a season, although I do disagree. Ideally yeah I'd like to have had all the info be released before the season start, but in my opinion that's not absolutely crucial if we at least know that something is going to be changed and at least vaguely what that something is. Here's a quote from an article titled The ECL 11 rulebook update is here!, posted November 19, 2020 (two days after Lite and a day after Neo had started, before Pro & Elite started):

Quote

Here's a snapshot of some of the major adjustments / additions compared to ECL 10:

• Added rule 2.6, the player card name must match a player’s in-game name
• Updated rule 3.2, team signup requirements (specifically that a Neo signup must have 8 players on the team)
• Added rule 11.2, server selection in challenge games
• Added rule 11.7.1, player customisation (specifically CHEL gear)
• Added rule 13.1.7, Elite players and the use of their IRL name in-game
• Updated rule 10.7.1, specifying that teams must stick to the home/away split as dictated by NHLGamer
• Finally, there will be a further update coming soon to the rulebook (as well as an article to help explain the rationale) concerned with the promotion structure from ECL 11 to ECL 12. Please stay tuned!

Now, I did bold that section myself, originally it was just an easily missable ending of an article that I wouldn't assume too many were interested in. This should've been emphasized more (at least be bolded or something), but that's an official channel for communication & as I said Kenu even posted related info about this in the chatbox, which while not being an official information channel is one that I think more people might actually read. So in my opinion, this change was communicated to everyone with minimum time and details necessary so that this isn't a farce. It wasn't a perfect or even a good execution, but imo it was enough. I do see though why you and others who have actually been affected by this may think otherwise than someone who wasn't, and I do agree that ideally you'd like all the info to be out before the season start.

I do think that at that point maybe NG should've just posted an article that no-one would've understood due to its complexity but had all the info in it, and then come out with the simplified release when that's ready. That way the info would've at least been out there from the get-go. Or relased the basic things first (maybe a bit like Janikka suggested), like how many teams are going to be affected and what's the basic idea behind it, I mean the actual qualifier format is info that wouldn't have had any bearing to anyone at that point in time.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Mikka
fixed some words yay

1 timme sedan, Mikka säger:

 

(2) I understand your point here about not changing things midway through a season, although I do disagree. Ideally yeah I'd like to have had all the info be released before the season start, but in my opinion that's not absolutely crucial if we at least know that something is going to be changed and at least vaguely what that something is. Here's a quote from an article titled The ECL 11 rulebook update is here!, posted November 19, 2020 (two days after Lite and a day after Neo had started, before Pro & Elite started):

 

You might disagree and I might have missed your point as to why you think changing format mid-season is a good thing, but I dont see it? 

NG did announce there was gonna be a change to promotional system for ECL12. Thats not the same as postponing qualification 3 months and allowing roster moves, or new teams in qualification. Or that they will seed Lite teams (regardless of position) higher than Pro teams (except then they change it back again, so now Pro teams are seeded higher in the actual qualification....which makes no sense if you're supposed to use the same logic).

It creates a bunch of problems. Unfair competition being a major one. The othe major one is forcing teams who want to keep their spot to play during summer vacation. If they released the change after we would have fair competition and could all enjoy the beach for summer  NG would have 8-9 more months to figure out the best possible solution for a new league structure. Maybe collecting feedback from community etc.

 

 

3 tuntia sitten, iSvamp kirjoitti:

If that is your best argument! Sure! 

Good luck without tacterz 😘

Classic, so if you don’t have anything smart to say after someone says something that doesn’t make you happy, you just start shooting random bs which is not even related to this convo  aight

oh ye, and good luck playing in the same division with your academy😘 

3 minuter sedan, vvlampela säger:

Classic, so if you don’t have anything smart to say after someone says something that doesn’t make you happy, you just start shooting random bs which is not even related to this convo  aight

oh ye, and good luck playing in the same division with your academy😘 

Haha like you just did. You're not a better person.

4 minuuttia sitten, iSvamp kirjoitti:

Haha like you just did. You're not a better person.

Dumb people needs dumb answers

12 minuter sedan, vvlampela säger:

Dumb people needs dumb answers

Cute! First guy who went personal in this thread! 

Kisses

4 minutes ago, J-Foppa said:

You might disagree and I might have missed your point as to why you think changing format mid-season is a good thing, but I dont see it? 

NG did announce there was gonna be a change to promotional system for ECL12. Thats not the same as postponing qualification 3 months and allowing roster moves, or new teams in qualification. Or that they will seed Lite teams (regardless of position) higher than Pro teams (except then they change it back again, so now Pro teams are seeded higher in the actual qualification....which makes no sense if you're supposed to use the same logic).

It creates a bunch of problems. Unfair competition being a major one. The othe major one is forcing teams who want to keep their spot to play during summer vacation. If they released the change after we would have fair competition and could all enjoy the beach for summer  NG would have 8-9 more months to figure out the best possible solution for a new league structure. Maybe collecting feedback from community etc.

I don't see changing anything mid-season as a good thing, but I don't see that anything was changed mid-season either. For teams that finished 13-16 in Pro, the only thing that changed compared to the old system was that they get more time to train and improve their roster & morale before having to prove to be worthy of their Pro spots. For the 12th place team, "oh fuck, we have an extra mini-tourney to play before next season to prove that we're still good enough to play in Pro", which obiviously is a bit of an unpleasant surprise but I mean they weren't confirmed to finish 12th when this was announced, so they could've still played better and finished higher to avoid all this. For Lite teams, the only one that lost something is 4th for having to play in the qualifiers, but again they knew about this before their season ended. And 5-8th for not being the first teams promoted in case of an empty Pro spot due to disbanding teams (guess not :D). The remaining Lite & Wildcard teams lost absolutely nothing, but instead gained an opportunity to first of all get promoted even if zero Pro teams would disband, and secondly also the chance to prove their skills instead of the opinion-based system that was previously in use.

So in my opinion the changes were not drastic enough that everyone should be losing their minds on when it was announced, yeah it would've been good to announce it before the season but it's not like it was after the season and the ones affected had zero ways to affect their situation. Everyone (well, except the 5 promoted lite teams) was given the chance to prove themselves, even the 15th & 16th that were originally announced to be relegated without qualifiers straight to Lite. Now if people disagree with the whole system, that's another topic that I've also given my comments on earlier.

 

The bolded part and onwards, I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say, unless you're just making your stance clearer on how this should've gone in your opinion? The bolded parts in the final paragraph I'd ask to elaborate but I'm not sure I have the energy & willingness to keep on arguing here, but if you have the time then please do, I want to understand your viewpoint. The seeding I've also commented on earlier, I don't think either that it makes any sense to now suddenly rank Pro teams higher if it was decided before that they should be lower than Lite (unless the thought process is lite top8 > pro bottom 8 > rest of lite in which case I'll agree to disagree with NG on that & ask if these kind of thought processes behind changes could be communicated through the articles in the future).

26 minutes ago, vvlampela said:

Classic, so if you don’t have anything smart to say after someone says something that doesn’t make you happy, you just start shooting random bs which is not even related to this convo  aight

oh ye, and good luck playing in the same division with your academy😘 

Hey now, they suggested that svamp's current team should've been relegated straight to lite after last season without giving them a chance in the qualifier!11!!1!1!! That would've been quite unfortunate wouldn't it 🤠

Spamming too much on here but btw, the captaincy/team ownership issue that some have mentioned... I didn't comment it on earlier because I thought that it's just too hard of an issue to be tackling here, but guess what I've realised Due to this great new qualifier system that we have in place, there is imo zero grounds to keep it in the rules that a captain can change every single player on the roster but himself and keep the spot. I mean now if the new roster is good enough, they'll still get into Pro. I don't think there's ever been a case like that in Elite because of, well, reasons. This would in my opinion just further level the playing field and back the base idea behind the promo/rele reform

4 minuter sedan, Mikka säger:

I don't see changing anything mid-season as a good thing, but I don't see that anything was changed mid-season either. For teams that finished 13-16 in Pro, the only thing that changed compared to the old system was that they get more time to train and improve their roster & morale before having to prove to be worthy of their Pro spots. For the 12th place team, "oh fuck, we have an extra mini-tourney to play before next season to prove that we're still good enough to play in Pro", which obiviously is a bit of an unpleasant surprise but I mean they weren't confirmed to finish 12th when this was announced, so they could've still played better and finished higher to avoid all this. .

 

First: I still don't see an argument as to why it was better to announce it mid-season. Now you say there were no changes? Okay, I will argue otherwise.

Thy changed alot of things after the season was underway (hence mid-season). Tbh it was not mid-season but really towards the end of the season.

Change: ECL 1-10 Pro team 13th played best out of 7 against 16th. 

Change: ECL 1-20 Teams 1-12 did not qualify, now 12th team were put in qualification

Change: Roster moves were allowed

Change: 3 months between regular season and relegation is not fair play.

Why do you think relegations are played shortly after regular season in real sport and not before the beginning of a new season with new rosters? The relegetion/promotion system is tied with a regular season for a reason. We might very well play against team-members in the qualification that were part of the team who put us in qualification in the first place. How can anyone think that is fair play? I challenge you to name one example in the history of sports when relegation/promotion has allowed roster moves. 

SSK did not get a chance to prove themselves when the change is announced 1 week to go of regular season with 3 games left. 3 opponents hardly even equals the majority of teams you play. 

 

5 minuter sedan, Mikka säger:

So in my opinion the changes were not drastic enough that everyone should be losing their minds on when it was announced, yeah it would've been good to announce it before the season but it's not like it was after the season and the ones affected had zero ways to affect their situation. Everyone (well, except the 5 promoted lite teams) was given the chance to prove themselves, even the 15th & 16th that were originally announced to be relegated without qualifiers straight to Lite. Now if people disagree with the whole system, that's another topic that I've also given my comments on earlier.

The most drastic changes NG ever done to League structure, would't you agree?

After season (and after promotion/relegation) is fine. Then everybody played the tournament with the rules and and prerequisites at hand at the beginning. 

Actually no...we have not been given a chance to prove ourselves with the team who went into qualification. With our team now I believe we wouldnt even be in qualification. So can we please get to play against all the pro teams from previous season again? (Im not serious, Im just making a point that no 12-16 teams in Pro has gotten the chance to prove themselves under the prerequisites that they were put here.

23 minuter sedan, Mikka säger:

The bolded part and onwards, I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say, unless you're just making your stance clearer on how this should've gone in your opinion? The bolded parts in the final paragraph I'd ask to elaborate but I'm not sure I have the energy & willingness to keep on arguing here, but if you have the time then please do, I want to understand your viewpoint. The seeding I've also commented on earlier, I don't think either that it makes any sense to now suddenly rank Pro teams higher if it was decided before that they should be lower than Lite (unless the thought process is lite top8 > pro bottom 8 > rest of lite in which case I'll agree to disagree with NG on that & ask if these kind of thought processes behind changes could be communicated through the articles in the future).

About the schedule? Obviously the change has taken a lot of time. If they didnt make it now, ECL could play during spring as every other 2nd ECL since the start of ECL. No play during summer

System in comptelely fucked up , please fix it before season starts.. And feedback is a request to fix upcoming issues which you have at the moment.

🤷🏼‍♂️