Leaderboard

Classic, so if you don’t have anything smart to say after someone says something that doesn’t make you happy, you just start shooting random bs which is not even related to this convo aight oh ye, and good luck playing in the same division with your academy😘

Dumb people needs dumb answers

It must be very challenging to reconcile all these various factors that go into decisions like these when you're transitioning from a four-tier system into a five-tier one. That said, I think there is a lesson for the staff (who I understand to be dedicated, passionate, and working hard to give us all the best ECL experience possible) to be learned from these announcements. They have been well-written so I'm not criticizing that, but they have included so much to take in that it can get confusing. The puzzle is so large that putting it together without missing any pieces can be difficult. The staff obviously knows all that stuff before the announcements, and presenting it in an easily digestible manner to the rest of us is something that I feel could be improved. It is tricky for sure, but I think a potential approach would be to prioritize the most pertinent information, perhaps even making separate announcements published some time apart, and to more strongly differentiate the various bits of information via logical categorization. This would help people build a coherent overview of the changes in their minds. Realistically, long detailed explanations will not engage most people's steadfast attention. This leads to some of the evident confusion and misunderstanding where some things come as a surprise to some people despite having already been presented. After all that I will add that my message mainly concerns the vast announcement during ECL 11 as this new one on its own is quite effective.

The hypothetical groups you had in a quote are correct using the adjusted seedings being used for ECL 12 qualifiers, but in the original article Pro teams are seeded below the Lite teams and above Core. So I can only assume that the current, adjusted seedings (which I tbh didn't notice b4 ) are only temporary and due to the process of promoting these 5 Lite teams. From the original reform article: So I'd assume this is the system that's going to be used starting from next season with the Core teams coming in and everything. With these seedings, the groups would look like: Just my personal opinion but Group 3 & 4 are the ones I'd want to be in. The groups you posted looked good, so maybe just seeding Pro above Lite would solve the problem. I agree with the bolded part, think it's a bit too late for immediate changes. As for the non-bolded part though: My only association to anything regarding the qualifiers is playing like one tourney/league with like one guy in a few of the teams, but as far as I'm aware there is not a single player in the qualifiers that I keep in touch with regularly. Looking at the people who've liked my first comment, I see a lot of people that don't have their horses in the race either. I also don't see more than a few players per team in there, so I'd say that there's representation from a pretty wide spectrum of teams. Most of the comments here are from people that are directly affected, but hitting a like on a comment is a lot easier to do than spending hours on writing about things that don't even affect oneself (yea it's me I'm the oneself hello). I get how these changes seem drastic and so sudden to most people, but these things are not done over just a few days or weeks. Even from public sources (Kenu's chatbox messages) there was info that there's going to be some changes to the promotion system at least from season start. There was messages about "please hold on, we're trying to make it somewhat digestible", "next week", "soon". The promotion/relegation section in the rulebook was blacked out too and I think there was some kind of a notice about an announcement coming. And we all know how Kenu/NG informs us about things basically only when they're done, so this has been long coming. From what I've heard, NG has felt that there needs to be proper notice given before the season about a big reform like this so that people are not blindsided. That's obiviously not what happened here even if it was the plan and I do agree announcing this mid-season was NG shooting themselves in the foot, but as far as I'm aware this is exactly what NG wanted to avoid but for some reason just wasn't able to. Let's not think this whole reform was half-assedly assembled during a weekend at NG's beautiful sauna headquarters, they've put a lot of time into this. I agree there's still work to be done to make these things more simpliefied and easy to understand, but judging from Kenu's chatbox messages trying to do that as good as possible is what got us into this mess (about the late announcement) in the end That obiviously shouldn't happen but it did, even if it unintentionally, so I guess that's an opportunity for NG for further improvement.

Its not an opinion that the tournament is unfair. Its a fact. Changing prerequisites in an ongoing tournament makes it unfair. Again, please make an argument how allowing new teams to enter the qualification, or recruiting players between regular season and qualification makes for fair competition. Do you understand why there are trade deadlines in sport? You are arguing that NG is working hard and listening to feedback, which is not arguing the point. No one is disputing that NG is working hard. Decisions are sometimes tough, but the decision to change the League structure is a fairly big decision to make. They just had to make it between seasons. It is really not that hard. And when you make a decision that creates unfair competition...you should correct it. Im fine with us qualifying. I knew we had to qualify 10 games into ECL11. Really...Im not asking for free spot. What I would ask is to play the qualification close in time to regular season with the rosters who got there. This is not possible anymore. But at least, they can make every team who did not get a Pro spot qualify. I do feel bad for SSK who got the notice 1 week and 3 games left of regular season that 12th position would put them in qualification, and then gets a lower seed than Lite teams who did not make the quarterfinals in Lite.

Why would it be a mess? What would it change more than gamer doing the right thing considering Kenu already talking about making this changes for ECL 13? I think (pretty much) everyone wants the PRO division to be competivitive. Just let everyone play in the qualifier so we get the best available teams in PRO for the next season. There is still time, gamer.

Just curious.. why was it okay to make changes midseason in ECL 11 but not now? Whats the difference? Still affects the same teams as the previous changes. And thoose who you say accept the new rules do they really? They might be quiet because they are not standing with their pants down. Edit: Making a poll takes 2 minutes and you will have your answers.

We can't forget the beloved Hawks Hockey Club ❤️ Gz on the signing tho, nice to see not only more and more orgs but also more and more teams south of Malmö climbing up the ladders, no matter the annoyance over the servers

Well, they changed lots of stuff. They also changed that number 15 and 16 in Pro would get an extra chance. Maybe they should change that back as well because those teams "were not meant to be there in the first place".

I'd say 70+ likes on Mikka's post is pretty ''overwhelming'' feedback 😆😆? Or do you usually see this many likes on ANY post here @NG?

Just to put my 2 cents in, as someone who plays in LITE next season. I think it's ridiculous, that a team that needed around 10 wins (like @iSvamp pointed out multiple times) to win LITE, get INSTANTLY promoted to PRO, before a team (SSK) that was just a couple of wins off playoffs, even though, the rules was said to be that the top 4 LITE teams get promoted whilst top 8 (or 9?) has to be in the qualifier tournament. Out of a competitive point of view, I think it is really important to withhold the principle of QUALIFYING into a higher division, ESPECIALLY when you did NOT actually "earn" it. It's not too late to make things right IMO, the staff HAS to consider this overwhelming feedback, just put those teams that you chose to immediately promote to PRO, into the qualifiers instead. That would be the best thing to do, out of a competitive point of view. But hey, what the fuck do I know

This means: * Winner of B07 games play Pro next season * If your team does not reach Last 16 in Lite there is no chance for Pro next season. * If your team will be 15 or 16 in PRO there is no chance for Pro next season. * If your team goes to the semifinal in Lite you will play Pro next season. * Lite 16, Qual and Wild teams will have a chance to get an Open Spot after next signup. This is just one model. I don't actually see the point with Wild Cards, but this system works without those teams as well, of course.

Congrats guys @IDangledYouOut@Original-SnuS@afc_Tschitsch@Freeman7187

First: I still don't see an argument as to why it was better to announce it mid-season. Now you say there were no changes? Okay, I will argue otherwise. Thy changed alot of things after the season was underway (hence mid-season). Tbh it was not mid-season but really towards the end of the season. Change: ECL 1-10 Pro team 13th played best out of 7 against 16th. Change: ECL 1-20 Teams 1-12 did not qualify, now 12th team were put in qualification Change: Roster moves were allowed Change: 3 months between regular season and relegation is not fair play. Why do you think relegations are played shortly after regular season in real sport and not before the beginning of a new season with new rosters? The relegetion/promotion system is tied with a regular season for a reason. We might very well play against team-members in the qualification that were part of the team who put us in qualification in the first place. How can anyone think that is fair play? I challenge you to name one example in the history of sports when relegation/promotion has allowed roster moves. SSK did not get a chance to prove themselves when the change is announced 1 week to go of regular season with 3 games left. 3 opponents hardly even equals the majority of teams you play. The most drastic changes NG ever done to League structure, would't you agree? After season (and after promotion/relegation) is fine. Then everybody played the tournament with the rules and and prerequisites at hand at the beginning. Actually no...we have not been given a chance to prove ourselves with the team who went into qualification. With our team now I believe we wouldnt even be in qualification. So can we please get to play against all the pro teams from previous season again? (Im not serious, Im just making a point that no 12-16 teams in Pro has gotten the chance to prove themselves under the prerequisites that they were put here. About the schedule? Obviously the change has taken a lot of time. If they didnt make it now, ECL could play during spring as every other 2nd ECL since the start of ECL. No play during summer

Good points @Janikka I agree with that things can improve and get more clear. For now I am one of those who are open to change things, because obviously it can be better 🙂 It is a spinning wheel and there will always be someone that is dissatisfied. Anyhow, i do NOT support doing this changes now, a couple of days before it all starts. That would be a mess in my opinion.

This is just your (and a small group of people compared to how many players there is) opinion. @FINSeRe@Pontinho 70 "likes" is compared to 7-8 teams out of 300, the rest I'm assuming accepts the new structure and move on with their life. What i am trying to say is that we don't know if NG thinks this is a bad decision or not. We should respect them enough to give them time to analyze the feedback, discuss this and if necessary adjust next season. If you've ever been in a position where you have to make choices that affects thousands of people in a good or bad way, you know its not easy - at least they respect the feedback but they can't just change everything in a heartbeat cause a group of people think it's not 100% perfect. Sure, 5 out of 300 teams got a "free ticket" and i understand that sucks for the ones that didn't or the ones who didn't or has to qualify but this is e-sport, stuff like this is not rare. They shouldn't change anything now so let us respect their decision, be thankful that we have NG and just play the d*mn game. This is a never-ending discussion, at least until the season starts and everyone forgets about it.

We know they work hard for little or no pay. We appreciate it and therefore so many have stayed since ECL1 Actually because of the hard work of @Kenu everyone at Consolehockey moved to NHLGamer in the first place. But sometimes people make bad decisions, and in this case the timing issue is caused by their own actions. They decided to make the change mid-season. If they had just waited a few weeks, they would have until October/November to figure out the format for coming tournaments. AND bonus: keep the ECL fair. Which means; not forcing teams to wait months and allowing teams to recruit players, or even allowing new teams who did not participate in ECL11 regular season to qualify. Now they may argue that a change was needed because of the increase in players and teams. Fair enough. But ECL has increased with every season if I’m correct? This had to be foreseeable and expected. They just had to make the change in between seasons. I welcome anyone to argue ECL11 + qualification is a fair competition. Don’t wait to fix this. Do it now.

Thought it would be obvious that ALL free Pro spots would be in qualifiers. Part of the reason i was okay giving away my teams Pro spot was that someone who actually deserving it would get it through qualifiers. RIP. (No offence to any team getting a free spot, all are great, but still🤷‍♂️)

This is spot on and actually shows that there is two contradicted rules simultaneously. I only have two ECL seasons of experience so my opinion maybe isn't the most interesting but I really feel that there is some unfairness of how things were decided. It feels unfair that Pro teams 12th-16th have to qualify while these 5 Lite teams get promoted directly without being challeneged at all. I also think that, deep inside somewhere, everyone knows that there probably is a skill difference between Lite 9th vs Pro 12th. We understand if the timeline as per now is too short but there are some options still and there is still time for some changes that would result in more fairness with less frustration and dissatisfaction. A. Add these Lite teams to the Qualifier and put them to a fair test. A 25 team Qualifier would take maybe 1 week extra than planned. This would mean 12 spots to Pro out of the 25 team Qualifier. B. If 25 team Qualifier is to big and take too long time. Let the highest Pro seeded teams from the Qualifiers get those open Pro spots and replace them in the Qualifiers with the 5 Lite teams. This would feel more fair and you'd have time until next ECL to overhaul these Qualifer rules and it's flow.

If this means preventing this: then yeah, I agree 10000%. (For example) Pro Group 1 12th place team SSK was 4 points from a playoff spot, and they are going to have to go through qualifiers when PENTA (highest seed eliminated in Lite top16 so 9th I guess) gets to go straight to Pro. I kinda like the idea that even the 12th place team in Pro has to qualify, but imo in the case of extra spots you should just allocate those to the qualifiers so that the best teams play in Pro. Those five that now got instant promotion might just be the top5 teams in the qualifiers and be top5 in Pro next year, hell do I know, but imo they shouldn't take a priority over teams that weren't too far off from Pro playoffs. --> just let everyone prove themselves in the qualifiers, that's the primary idea behind this new system isn't it? If there's extra spots, then great, more (qualifier) teams have the chance to get promoted!

Go MCES Spartiates Go!!!

Spamming too much on here but btw, the captaincy/team ownership issue that some have mentioned... I didn't comment it on earlier because I thought that it's just too hard of an issue to be tackling here, but guess what I've realised Due to this great new qualifier system that we have in place, there is imo zero grounds to keep it in the rules that a captain can change every single player on the roster but himself and keep the spot. I mean now if the new roster is good enough, they'll still get into Pro. I don't think there's ever been a case like that in Elite because of, well, reasons. This would in my opinion just further level the playing field and back the base idea behind the promo/rele reform

Hey now, they suggested that svamp's current team should've been relegated straight to lite after last season without giving them a chance in the qualifier!11!!1!1!! That would've been quite unfortunate wouldn't it 🤠

There are probably many reasons why it could be difficult as the Qualification begins tomorrow (?). One reason could be this: It is supposed to be 20 teams in the qualification. If you bring those 5 teams back, then you will have to remove the 5 teams they added to the Pro Qualification. Because, if they don't, they change the whole model and nothing is how it's supposed to be. That is only one of the things. Edit: I agree with a lot. Yes, it is unfair in some parts and i also feel sad for some teams. But still I feel a big hesitation in changing all of it and make a u-turn.

"Overwhelming feedback"? 10-15 players (mostly players from affected teams so the opinion is not very objective) is not agreeing out of what...close to 300 teams? I say no changes now and let NG figure this out in peace. I think people forget how much work they put in to make this work and i know they care about the feedback. Also, moving the teams to qualifiers creates a series of events so there will probably not be enough time to do that.

Did you read my comment at all? I am personally against free spots. I dont think any of the "free spot" teams are specially proud of getting promoted this way. We didnt make the rules, so I think your comments "blaming" us for getting a promotion is a bit strange..

The idea of qualifications was good and it is necessary, but the execution for this season fails and I understand that a lot of it has to do with what was originally said to be the rules. I understand that you have stick with those for this season even though it would be clear already that those rules need a lot of fixing. I agree with Mikka on many parts. I do not think that any unforeseen spots caused by teams disbanding should be filled automatically. Those should be filled by qualification. Also I dont think that announcing this midlastseason is any kind of a real issue even though it stings some teams, but everyone was surely trying to finish their best anyway? I dont see an issue with new wildcard teams getting a chance for qualification. Do we really wanna throw new teams created by elite and top pro players end up in Core or Lite? Who does that benefit, it would only ruin those divisions for everyone. I agree though that it looks bad that some teams fire everyone except the captain to get to a higher qualification. Would be hard to enforce any rule to prevent that though because any rule could be circumvented by simply the captain changing the name of the team and making someone else the captain and then its a whole new team. There was no mention originally about wildcard teams having to qualify for the qualifiers and I believe information about this was given to the teams at a very late moment and with a very short notice and that should be handled a lot better. There were different demands to apply for ecl12 lite qualifiers than ecl13- lite qualifiers which were way tougher for ecl12. I found that very puzzling when considering that the number of the wildcard teams are the same for both. Ecl12 lite qualifiers actually has way more teams than starting ecl13-. And now only 44 teams participate in the lite qualifiers even though it was supposed to be 64. So many teams will disband from lite and higher every season that I wonder how messy will that make the current rules look in the future lite qualifiers. The biggest thing for the future is definitely not filling the spots of disbanded teams automatically.

I can definitely understand and appreciate the passionate response regarding the subject. That being said, I have to make it clear that any personal attacks on staff members will not be tolerated. This applies to this topic and all topics. We are happy to receive your feedback and discuss the subject, but going after staff members individually is not ok. We are all passionate about what we are doing here and while our opinions may not always align, it doesn’t mean that we don’t want the same end result. At the end of the day it comes down to the fact that we announced how this would work on the 30th of December and at this point are honouring what we described the procedure would be. We received some feedback and criticism at that point and made some immediate adjustments to some valid points that were brought up. One of these points of feedback was not how the teams would be promoted in the case of unforseen spots in the divisions. As a reminder, here’s how it was outlined in the New Division and Promotion Structure article: In this case, there were as many as five (5) unforeseen spots in Pro and we filled them as previously announced. Is it the right approach? Depends who you ask, and we’re open for feedback on this - preferably also from teams that are not in any way involved in this procedure currently, so we can get a broader view on the subject. Either way, we do not believe it would be right to change the rules for this a few days before the qualifiers. So while the question about whether or not this was the right approach to begin with may be legitimate, we have stuck to the original plan and not undermined anyone’s chances. As for the screenshot of the registration news story - valid feedback, this notion lacks specification on our part. It is referring to the spots that are available by default as per plan - seven (7) for Pro and does not take into account spots opened due to other circumstances such as teams disbanding. We apologise for the obvious lack of specification. I hope we can keep this discussion productive and develop the structure in a way where we can all agree on the amendments to make to the qualifications for season 13. Does everyone agree that in the future (from season 13), every free spot - both default and unforeseen - should be made be available through the qualifiers? For clarity, I am not referring to the instant promotion spots that are available through finishing top 3 in Lite etc. Thanks for all the constructive feedback, for example by @Mikka. I will address some of them in a separate message.

With how the qualifiers have been seeded, those 5 teams would be the top 5 seeded teams in the qualifiers From the original structure update article: Lite teams being higher seeded than the Pro teams also means that at least I, personally, would in the "real" qualifier format prefer to be the 13th rank in Pro instead of 12th. "Why is that?", you may ask. Well, in the format that's going to be in use starting next season, the only difference to the seedings I posted above is that Pro bottom4 will be directly replaced with top4 of core. --> the 12th and 14th placed Pro teams will be in the same group with each other, meanwhile the 13th place teams will be the lone Pro teams in their groups, as seen below. I haven't had enough sleep to think about how this could be solved or even if I'm the only one thinking like this, but I'll just drop this here. I thought I commented about this on the original article but it appears I didn't, so sorry for the late feedback Also I don't personally get the complaints about how this was announced mid-season, I mean I'd like to think that everyone wants to achieve the highest finish possible no matter what, so I don't see how an earlier heads-up would've solved anything. I do understand that the teams affected might feel upset about getting this unpleasant surprise so late, but be honest if you would've finished higher due to the fear of a relegation battle instead of the hunger to get into the playoffs, you're doing something wrong.

Södertälje SK: 4 points away from the PRO Playoffs = Qualifications Your team: 10 wins away from winning the ECL LITE (TEN) = Free spot in PRO. ---- Ofc we're "happy" for you, but this is so wrong. It's not your fault tho, it's gamers.

1.4? Farssi

@NHLGamer Please explain why you change the rules again. And can we trust the rules set for the qualifying-tournament or will these be changed again before ECL12?

Cute! First guy who went personal in this thread! Kisses

Haha like you just did. You're not a better person.

If that is your best argument! Sure! Good luck without tacterz 😘

WTF did I just read?? 🤣 You fucked up. Can I make a support req about this?